Hey, beautiful soul, and welcome to Dear Body, I'm Listening, the podcast for women navigating chronic symptoms, invisible illness and that daily dance between hope and exhaustion. If you've ever been told it's all in your head, well, this podcast is for you, because your body is not lying, and neither are you.
Hi, I'm Donna Piper, movement therapist, Pilates instructor and chronic illness navigator. After years of being dismissed and diagnosed, and doing everything, quote, unquote, right, but still getting sicker, I created this space to tell our truth. Here, we talk about swelling, brain fog, nervous system crashes, and the kind of symptoms that don't always show up on lab results. We're going to explore lymph breath, movement, self trust, latest research books, relationships, basically, everything, all from a place of compassion and honesty. This isn't about fixing your body. It's about finally being heard and getting some answers.
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Donna Piper: Hi, and welcome back listeners. I'm really excited to be talking today with Dr. Robert Kane. He is a Board Certified Clinical Thermologist, and "international authority" on women's breast and whole body thermography with nearly three decades of experience. He is dedicated to bringing science based imaging into women's wellness and preventative care through his work at Kane Thermal Imaging. Dr. Kane combines cutting edge technology with a compassionate educational approach, helping practitioners and patients understand what the body's heat patterns can reveal about hormone balance, inflammation, vascular health, and early signs of imbalance. So without any further ado, welcome Dr. Kane.
Dr. Robert Kane: Well, first of all, thank you for having me on your podcast. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk. It's been fun getting to know you a little bit before we went on. I'm really excited to talk to your listeners, and perhaps give another perspective on how women can take control of their health, and really be empowered in the doctor's office and know how to drive things. So for me, I've been in this for 30 years. My background is chiropractic. I initially got into thermal imaging as a way to look and see how my chiropractic was affecting the body. Now, for those of you that have never heard about thermal imaging, what it is is as the name sounds, temperature measurement, we actually take a picture, and you can see one on the back wall here, right about there, trying to do this looking forward. And what it does is it maps out the patterns of heat coming naturally from your body. And in those patterns of heat, we can get indications of inflammation, circulation, tissue function. And sometimes, even a growing cancer. This was very exciting to me as a pain specialist in chiropractic. And then eventually, my interest got towards the breast arena, and I got certified and trained under one of the world's leaders in breast thermography, a doctor named William Hobbins. And gosh, since 2003, I've been doing thermography exclusively.
Donna Piper: Oh, that's really exciting. So many things you said that I want to dive into. First, what led you to general thermal imaging to the breast, specifically.
Dr. Robert Kane: Initially, I did not want to specialize in breast imaging, really, because I'm a chiropractor. It just didn't seem appropriate at the time. But when I was working with Dr. Hobbins, initially, he was reading for me. He said to me, look, because you are qualified to be able to do this, you are not diagnosing breast cancer. You are simply reading thermal patterns and giving that information to physicians to work with. And then as we'll talk about later on to holistic physicians to work with, so that we can look at prevention. But you're not overstepping your bounds. And being in Redwood City, California, this is the Bay Area. This is the breast cancer capital of the US. I can't tell you how many patients would come to my office for chiropractic that had breast cancer, and I'm sitting on technology that could work with it. There was absolutely no way I was just going to sit on it and not make this available.
Donna Piper: Oh, that's wonderful. That's really a beautiful sentiment because it's so prevalent, breast cancer. I don't know anyone that doesn't know anyone directly, maybe in a family or close friend. It's not like six degrees of separation. You heard of a friend that has it. It's very prevalent. And there is a lot of talk between mammograms, depending on what you think about mammograms, should you have them? Should you not? The radiation. What are your takes about traditional mammograms, and also how thermal imaging can help it to be another tool with it?
Dr. Robert Kane: Yeah, it's a great question. I have a lot of women that talk to me, and they're very concerned about mammography. It's uncomfortable. They're concerned about the radiation, yet there is information that only the mammogram can provide. I'm a fan of using technologies appropriately, not demonizing one and glorifying another. We see the role in the profession of thermography as an adjunct. It's something to be used in addition to common radiology. And doing that, we've seen studies now that have shown detection rates are higher. So you've got a mammogram that shows maybe 80 to 90% accuracy on detecting cancer. We've seen that number go up to 95% when we add thermography into the mix. So thermal imaging, and I use those terms interchangeably, thermography and thermal imaging. It's almost like taking a new set of glasses that allows you to see different things in the first set of glasses.
Donna Piper: This is not medical advice, everyone. Again, this is for information so that listeners know. We're not saying one or the other, but what would be a nice protocol? So if you get yearly or bi-yearly mammograms, depending on your age or history, then when would you add the thermal imaging, would you do it at the same time? After? Or should you do some thermal imaging more often throughout the year for detection or prevention?
Dr. Robert Kane: Yeah, it's a great question. What I would say is for the most part, we leave radiology in the hands of the medical doctors that are running that particular patient's case because they know that person. They can work with their idiosyncrasies, their particular conditions and risk factors. The thermography, we recommend that it start actually as early as age 20. Not because we're expecting to find problems, but because we want to get baseline information. This is a test of breast tissue function, so we want to get a feel for how your breast tissue looks. We have our averages of normal, but let's now tailor that to be specific for you. And then we can look for deviations from that once we hit 30. We recommend that they're done annually for the same reason. Now, if we see signs of a developing concern, we can get that back to a physician's office where they can evaluate and see if it's something serious. In doing that, sometimes we've actually been able to catch things earlier when a mammogram was being prescribed. Or if someone was having a yearly mammogram, it forced an additional test, an ultrasound, an MRI that detected the cancer that was missed on the mammogram. So the idea is to weave it into the protocol every three years for women between 20 and 30, and then yearly for women 30 and above. And that could be modified depending if we see concerning thermal findings, if they're monitoring an existing condition, a lump, a mass, we can play with that because there's no radiation, there's no harm. So you could do the thermal imaging every day if you really wanted to, even though there's no reason. But there's no side effects from it.
Donna Piper: Oh, that's beautiful. That's a nice tool. And it's good to know to have a baseline. Because typically when you do your first mammogram, that's your baseline. They haven't looked before. I'm older, so mine started a while ago. I'm 54. So with mine, I had more dense tissue. They always are like, oh, could be something. And then now that the imaging has gotten better with technology, I get less of those calls about it, it might be something. Is it just dense tissue? Or is it something? So I think also with this technology, it could just aid in that to give your provider, and some more information too. I think the more information we have about our body and how it works, the better. So you can't go wrong, especially having a nice baseline in your 20s, and then as you mature. I do like that you're just saying, like you're a medical doctor, your medical team, they have their protocols, and you adhere to those. And then this is just an added tool that could either help go deeper to find something faster if it's smaller, or if there's abnormalities in that. Maybe it's not breast cancer, but maybe it's something else.
Dr. Robert Kane: You mentioned the idea of breast density, and this is something that's just come out in the last five years. The number of women, number one, with overall breast density. And number two, how that's now actually being considered a risk factor for breast cancer because it's estrogen driven. And not that all estrogen is bad, but the types of estrogen that cause breast density can, at times, be driving cancer. But the density makes it harder to see things on mammograms. So wouldn't it be nice to see what the tissue is doing. To see if there are any thermal signals saying, hey, something looks like it's growing here, something looks like it's active here. Maybe instead of watching and waiting, we should run another test now, and make sure that nothing's going on to protect the patient.
Donna Piper: So with that, because I told you a little bit of my story, but the medical staff and doctors don't always see eye to eye. I've gotten a lot of misdiagnosis, pushback and things. So you have to really be your own advocate, and really stay in there with your doctors. But how open are doctors if I started this when I was 20 and I had my baseline, and then as I go up and have dense tissue and I'm like, here's my thermal imaging as well. Are they pretty open to seeing what's on there? I'm sure you might write a report, and maybe you're part of that process. But how does someone go to their primary care, or whoever is giving their test after the radiologist does their report to say, hey, maybe I want to look at this further.
Dr. Robert Kane: To be honest, I wish that it was widely adopted at this point. But it's a new technology. It's a new innovation. So most doctors will not understand it. They will probably perceive it as being sold as a replacement to a mammogram. So it may be a little rough in the beginning to try to educate them as to what's going on. I would suggest women give them the reports. The reports are very clear. I'm available. I consult with doctors routinely if they need information on what these reports mean, and how it integrates into their standard of care. But if they don't even want to deal with that, because sometimes, that's just a lot to carry as a patient. You could just simply say, if there's something on the thermal image that's of concern, you can just say, hey, can we run an additional test? Because I'm scared. Doctors generally will run the additional test when it comes to something like cancer, because they're afraid of missing something as well. Nobody wants to put a patient in danger. And if there's somebody who's genuinely scared, whether it's because of a test because they had other risk factors and they say, could we just run something just to give me peace of mind? A lot of doctors will just do that. And then often, after the fact, they'll sit there and say, wow, that thermal imaging thing picked it up. I'm glad we ran it, and we took that extra step.
Donna Piper: Oh, that's beautiful. It's very simple. It's not that you're trying to educate your doctor or even prove that this test shows something. I don't feel confident, and I'm scared that this might turn into something. Saying those words that way is also good. Probably get your doctor on board with what you're doing. Because sometimes, doctors don't like to have any outside influence, if they have. Everyone's different, but some aren't as open as, hey, I win this other thing. I did this test, and I want you to do stuff. But having that conversation, and I love those words that you said, I'm scared, and I would have it for the peace of mind. Can we run this test? aAd if nothing comes back, great. But if something does, then that's also great, because then the process of care could be sped up. Being in the oncology world isn't also super fast. My mother just got diagnosed with lung cancer. Think it was 2021, and it took her nine months in order to get radiology treatment. She's older, and lung cancer usually metastasizes. So luckily, it didn't. But trying to get into the system to see the doctors, to see the right people, having those words, it really does, I think, make a difference.
Dr. Robert Kane: And challenging, I agree.
Donna Piper: Yeah. So the other thing you said that I wasn't expecting, but it's a perfect segue, is estrogen. So I have dense tissue, breast tissue, and you said that was high estrogen. I don't know if any of my doctors ever said that, or whatever you said. You can clarify my words. But I also have something called lipedema, which is a fat disorder, which is diseased adipose tissue that grows abnormally in different areas of your body. And there is hormone driven, specifically estrogen driven, and they're not sure why. They don't understand. Every person is a little different, that also has lipedema, that might have estrogen. Puberty, pregnancy and menopause are the times where you can actually grow in volume in those areas that are effective with diseased fat tissue. You talked about pain. Being a chiropractor, being in pain, and thermal imaging looking at pain, chronic pain is something that definitely I have, and most women with lipedema have this heavy pain in their legs. Are you familiar with lipedema as a physician? Or is it newer? Not everyone. It's not taught in medical schools. It's more random.
Dr. Robert Kane: I understand the general condition. But I'm not familiar with the specifics, so I couldn't speak to the condition and how to manage it.
Donna Piper: Okay. Because it isn't taught, and there is a significant amount of pain. If someone comes in, if I got a scan, you would probably because I also have chronic fatigue syndrome. I have mast cell activation syndrome, and I have hypermobility, EDS and POTS. I'm lucky. I have the jackpot of all, like they're all vascular, lymphatic, and then dysautonomia. So there's definitely different things going on, hot and cold. Different areas aren't really supposed to be hot, and they are. Or vice versa. So looking at the scan of me, I know breasts would show the density, is there any indication if you saw that? And maybe the pain, maybe to do a referral to figure out more about this. I know this is totally off topic.
Dr. Robert Kane: No, this is great. We set apart bit by bit, and because it could be a great way to illustrate what the technology can do. So number one, we talked about estrogen, and estrogen is normal. It's not that estrogen is bad. You need it. It's one of the primary female hormones, and men have it too. But sometimes, it can be overactive, especially in breast tissue. And when it is, it can cause things like breast pain, cysts, fibrocysts, cramping, things like that. And it also could be a driver of cancer. Now, with the thermal imaging, what we've discovered is that the estrogen that naturally occurs in the breasts, when it starts to get into higher concentrations or it's not eliminated properly, can over stimulate the tissue receptors. And what we see is blood vessels that look very much the same as a woman who's pregnant or breastfeeding. So if I say a woman who's postmenopausal and she looks like she's ready to breastfeed, and she's not on estrogen replacement, she's not taking supplements to stimulate estrogen, she's just like that. One of the things I'm going to suspect in my gamut of things that can explain this is an estrogen imbalance in the breasts. So doing a breast scan on someone like you with lipedema, which is an estrogen imbalance, would be helpful to see if you're predisposed to any of this. That would be the first place that I would start. The second place I would start is you mentioned things like chronic fatigue. There were a couple of other systemic conditions that you mentioned, but I would want to take a look at the upper body, and that would be the face, the neck, the arms, the back and the chest.
What that could let me do is, number one, look at lymph flow going up and down to see if there are any patterns to suggest an impairment or an overactivation of the lymph pathways. I could see if there's any musculoskeletal contributors to pain like joint inflammation, muscle trigger points, things like that. And then by looking at the inner eyes, we can actually get the temperature of the brain, and see how brain functioning is working. It's a little different than a brain scan. It's not quite as specific. But what we've noticed is that patients with fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue often have elevated or dropped brain temperature, so we can document that. And then when they're being treated, instead of just going after symptoms, we could see if we normalize the brain temperature. And that could be a parameter of outcome versus simply symptoms. Which unfortunately as you know is the main way many of these diseases are being managed. Do you feel better? It's important. But the trick is, you don't want to stop a treatment too early. Because if you go two more days, it's going to work. But how do you know? Well, something like thermal imaging could give you feedback to say, hey, hold the course for a little bit. The body's changing. Let's give it a little more time, or the body hasn't really changed at all. I think this one's run its course. Let's switch to the next reader.
Donna Piper: That would be gold, because there isn't a diagnostic tool and a standardization. What is really feeling better means, like daily functioning and activities. But you're familiar with fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue. In order to heal, you have to do a lot of resting and pare back what you're doing because your body is already taxed. So by doing more, actually, is worse. So to have a diagnostic tool just to monitor like, okay, I've done these five things. Are they working? If I add this one thing, how does that affect the whole system? Because it is a hard thing. Luckily, they've had some studies out of Edinburgh about chronic fatigue. And now with long covid, they're seeing all that together as well. But that is a brain issue. So your brain still thinks that you're sick. So it's interesting that you could tempt out what the brain is through the eyes. Is it hot? Or is it a cold? It needs to be at this normal range and gives you more information, and maybe probably sooner when the symptoms, I think a lot of things, and you can speak to this in a more medical degree profession. But I think a lot of things happen internally before you see a symptom, or the symptom becomes negative to your lifestyle. So I think this technology can see the changing patterns sooner, if I'm understanding that correctly?
Dr. Robert Kane: Exactly right. Because what happens is, before we get symptoms, there's a change in body function. So the body's a beautiful, orchestrated balance of different functions and processes that are just like a symphony, the way it's orchestrated. I bang my hand, I don't think about it. It heals. All of that happens automatically, and it's under neurological control. Now generally, what will happen in terms of injury and disease? Well, in terms of disease, something has overwhelmed or overloaded the system. Something has created imbalance in the system, and that imbalance can go just long before the body expresses it as a symptom or a clinical sign. Now, if we can uncover the dysfunction first and reverse it, then we have the best chance of preventing disease. And this is exactly what we're looking at in the breast cancer department, too. Because right now, there are no proven scientific methods of preventing breast cancer. However, there have been scientifically identified risk markers for cancer that are modifiable. We know diet plays a role. We know lifestyle plays a role.
You can go on the Mayo clinic site, and you can read what those things are. But what we haven't had up until now is something dynamic enough to let us know, are those things really improving the breasts? So a woman can now go in and get a baseline. She finds that there's thermal activity in one of her breasts. Okay, she goes to her doctor. Her doctor clears her, hey, there's no cancer. Okay, no problem. What we now have is a risk marker for the future. So this woman is now statistically at a higher risk of developing cancer in the future just like if she had a family history or a gene. It's not a guarantee, but it's a tense statistical tendency. She can now take control, take action, modify lifestyle, modify diet, work with a holistic practitioner, and do interventions designed to lower risk factors, and get real time feedback to see if those things actually work. This is the first time we've been able to do this. And to me, this is the future of medicine because we're moving towards prevention. So before we can actually say that we can prevent breast cancer, we need to start looking at what are the ways that it's possible, and getting feedback on it to see which are the approaches that we need to do the big ticket research on.
Donna Piper: So just as a research question, have you been able to fund a lot of studies with thermal imaging for lipedema and a few other things? There's a clinical trial up at Stanford right now about maybe getting an oral medication that can maybe help the tissue and stuff. But Dr. Rockson, he's like a professor there, so it's a whole thing. Chronic fatigue, lipedema, POTS, EDS, there's very big, the smaller group like Grassroots really talk about it. But my understanding, and I could be wrong, but in order for companies, if there is like a medication for it or something, that the NIH has to at least spend a billion dollars in their own research before any other outside company will look at it and say, hey, maybe we should do these tests. Maybe this is something. Is that applicable in this world? Or do you get funding? Are you able to do studies? Or maybe not you, but the world of--
Dr. Robert Kane: Overall from the profession. I mean, there has been over the years some funding from NIH, Department of Defense actually funded a couple of breast studies back in the 1990s. Believe it or not, just because it was infrared, and that's the technology so they were willing to play ball. But most of the studies right now are being funded privately by University Grants. Most of them are looking at artificial intelligence algorithms to prove diagnostic capability in holistic we're using it more from a functional aspect. It's less about making the diagnosis. It's more about, is there a process in the body that might be out of balance that we can correct? Getting funding for those kinds of things is much harder because it's softer. If you're going after diagnostics, now you bring pharmacology into it, or you bring surgery into it, it fits that algorithm. And there's more money available for that kind of research. You've probably noticed it with some of the holistic stuff you've done. You can sit there and say, well, it's not scientific. Well, that's because nobody wants to spend money on it to make it scientific. And it's changing a bit. It's not completely all or none, but there's certainly more money available for surgery approaches, and for pharmacological approaches.
Donna Piper: Yeah, definitely. And anecdotally, when you talk to a lot of groups or women that have certain things, you see what works. But again, the bigger companies to fund that don't always look at the anecdotal sort of things. But it sounds like when your work, if you're a functional doctor, or your doctor does incorporate this, or is open to having the thermal imaging, as you were saying, the prevention for the breast cancer, potentially, if a woman have signs of breast cancer, but you're clear, and she starts to change her diet, then you can use the imaging to see if there's changes. You talked about the brain. You kind of know which diet, maybe going to a diet that is suspected to be very helpful, if there's no change in that, she can course correct, and maybe change different dietary things, or come up with different supplements or things that are needed. Because other than just being like, okay, I suspect that I could get this. I'm going to change my eating, and then still end up with it, because maybe there was something missing with the nutrient part of it. Does that make sense?
Dr. Robert Kane: Exactly. For example, there's a lot of research coming out right now that beets will increase a chemical called nitric oxide in the blood, and that can be used to reduce blood pressure. So it's very easy to sit and say, I'm just getting a lot of beets in my diet. But with blood pressure, we have feedback, right? I could sit there and try, I'm gonna eat beets in my diet for a month, and I'm gonna measure my blood pressure and see if it actually goes down. I get that feedback. Now with breast health, we really haven't had that feedback because there's very little testing that we're doing that's looking at breast function. PET scan is, but we're not going to do PET scans on people to monitor holistic wellness programs. It's an invasive test. It's expensive. It's just not the right test for it. But to have something non-invasive that can give real time feedback as to what the effects were on the physiology, it's a golden opportunity we've got right now.
Donna Piper: Especially when you said the future of medicine is more preventative. I know before we talked a little bit about medicine 3.0, you educated me a little bit about that. I think this is a perfect time to talk about that. Looking at the exciting frontier of taking your health into your own hands. Because I think all women and anyone listening to this podcast, all the people that you interact with Dr. Kane, part of getting the right diagnosis or getting your health where you like it, you always have to be your own advocate. And you can advocate more if you have more information about what you're trying to get, and how to have common terms with your doctors and things. But if you can explain medicine 3.0, because that's an exciting part. To prevent this, we don't have to go on medication or get surgery.
Dr. Robert Kane: Well, there's a doctor, a medical doctor named Peter Attia, and he wrote a book called Outlive several years ago. His idea was, how do we get people not just to live longer, but live better? And he talks about the idea that even though our lifespan is increasing over the years, our health span, our quality of life is not. So most people that are getting older are not aging well. They're having chronic diseases which turn into physical limitations in a lower quality of life. So he talked about that medicine 2.0 which is where we're at right now. And he coined these terms, it is medicine 1.0 by the way. That's when there was no scientific method. That was to pray to the gods and put leeches on people, and hope they get better. Medicine 2.0 said, wow, there's something called the scientific method, and I might be able to reproduce these findings, and really understand how things are working better. But medicine 3.0 is the next leap. Medicine 3.0 is when we move past managing chronic disease, and we move towards the prevention of chronic disease. And he identifies cancer, breast cancer, being a part of that. Diabetes and cardiovascular diseases as the major ones.
He says, rather than simply waiting till we have the disease and then determining how to manage it, what are the risk factors? And what are the ways we can provide feedback to make sure that as we change those risk factors and reduce them, that our body is responding? And when I read his book a couple of years ago, I just said, you just described exactly how I've been using thermography for the last 10 years. It's the perfect description. So that's what we want to go to, not just with breast health, but with everything. How do we take control? And this is my big message in my practice. I'm a real advocate for people taking control of their own health. And here's the difference, when we don't take control, it's almost like we're going to our parents and saying, mommy, daddy, what do I do? I don't know. I'm too small. The flip side of that is, I don't care what my doctor says. I read something, I saw something on the internet, so I know better. That's also a parental matter. That's the adolescent version of it. But the adult version of it is, this is my body. This is my health and my life. I run the show, but I need expert opinions because I don't know everything. So my doctor, that's one expert opinion. My specialist, that's another expert opinion. This holistic provider, that's another expert opinion. I'm going to sit with all those opinions and make my own decisions. And what I'm about in my practice is making sure we have the tools so those people that are driving their decisions in breast health and in pain management have the tools they need to make those informed decisions.
Donna Piper: That's wonderful. Now, is it widely available? I know we're both in the California coast area, but is thermal imaging, where can people find it? I also want to talk a little bit more. I know you educate people around this whole to have the machines and what it is, and how to use them. I'd like to talk a little bit more in depth at the moment. But are there a lot of places where they could go? If I was like, I'm just gonna use Google. Dr. Google, can I find thermal imaging? Or do I have to go get assessments? How does the process work when you want to go and get thermal imaging?
Dr. Robert Kane: Variability depends on the state that you're in. In some states, there's a little more concentration. And some states, they're not. Generally, they're available either through standalone facilities that are offering the injury, offering the imaging, or through holistic practices that could be an acupuncturist, a naturopath, an integrative medical doctor. But it's not available in hospitals, teaching facilities and of that sort, so you're not going to find one at Stanford. There's two associations I'm a part of that I think have reputable people out there doing it, and they have lists on their sites. One is the International Academy of Clinical Thermology, and I can give you that link. We can put it in show notes later. And the other is the American Academy of Thermology. I've sat on the board of both. I've sat on the board of International Academy, the AAT. I'm not on the board, but I've sat on their advisory committees to create standards and guidelines. And the reason why I like them is because it's very important that these tests are done properly under the right conditions, and both of those associations have good, clear, credible scientific guidelines for how the test should be performed. What it says and what it doesn't say. So that when you get results, you know they're accurate, and you know they're not overstepping their bounds.
Donna Piper: That's great. And what does the machine look like? Does it step into something? Is it like an x-ray machine? Is it something like you lie down and move through? What can you expect?
Dr. Robert Kane: That's a great question. I'm surprised I didn't offer that in the beginning.
Donna Piper: Well, I didn't ask you. We went right into it, the science stuff. But if people go into thermal imaging and they hear what it's supposed to be, can they ask questions?
Dr. Robert Kane: There's a little bit of variation from different units. But basically, it's a camera. So it could be anything from a handheld camera about this big, or it could look like a box. What's the three dimensional version of a rectangle? You know that box shape where it's more rectangular versus a square box. It looks like that, and it's not even touching the body. It's on a camera stand, and you're positioned in front of it just like you would be positioned for your family photos.
Donna Piper: And then do you do the front, backs and sides? Then do you do the eye like? Is there a standard thing? So if they checked me for everything, they would also check my eyes to see my brain, and then I could have known like, oh, it's really hot. You should maybe go see something. And maybe that would have been chronic fatigue.
Dr. Robert Kane: It is based upon what you come in with. So the average asymptomatic person, there's a lot of women that just come in for their breast health. So we would just do the breast imaging, and we do front sides, obliques, things like that, under surfaces. If you came in with something like what you're talking about, I would probably want to do the upper body, including the head, and the torso, and the arms and hands. If somebody had a complaint in the lower back or their lower body, I would want to add those images to it. There's some flexibility based upon what your concern is, and what we're trying to evaluate with you.
Donna Piper: Okay, so if some have lymphatics, would you do the whole body, like the lower as well? Or is that something you would want to ask? Say any listener has lipedema, usually their legs. It's indifferent. But usually, their legs where the bulk of the fat disease is either in the lower extremities, and maybe they don't even know. A lot of women don't even know they have it. It's pretty common, but very under-diagnosed. Would you need to ask? I'm just really asking so if any listener suspects after listening to me, they have all of my things, like MCAS, and I want to talk about that one for a little bit, but definitely like lipedema or chronic fatigue syndrome, and we'll talk about EDS that might be a little bit more subjective.
Dr. Robert Kane: Chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, I would definitely want the upper body. If they had symptoms or were suspicious that there could be something going on that could develop into symptoms, then we could do the lower body as well. So like I said, there's some flexibility on that. But if we know what you're looking for, then it's easier to prescribe what area of the body. You're welcome to do the whole body and just get the information that's there. No harm in doing that. But if you're concerned about costs, and if this is really needed, we would base that upon any symptoms you're experiencing, any clinical signs, and what the diagnosis is coming in.
Donna Piper: What is the cost of that? Is it pretty expensive? I'm assuming it's not covered by your insurance since it's not affiliated with--
Dr. Robert Kane: Insurance doesn't cover it, but most HSAs and FSAs do. So there is reimbursement through that. There are some nonprofits that have grants that will cover it. And for pain studies, there are limited situations where it can be covered for insurance as well. I would say that there's variation throughout the country depending on what state somebody's located in. But breast thermography wouldn't be more than 250 for breast imaging. Upper body, lower body, maybe 300, 350, something like that per region. So it's not that expensive when it comes to testing. It's not like going into an MRI paying out of pocket and getting hit with a $2,000 bill.
Donna Piper: Obviously, the market dictates the price. But in general, you want to look at the people, then on those two websites that you will provide, and we'll put the link in the show notes, to find a provider. And then also the cost is usually, probably Southern and Northern California is going to be more expensive.
Dr. Robert Kane: Yeah, that's exactly right. I've got a client right now that I do interpretation for in South Africa. And when she told me what the economy was like down there, I realized that we had to set up special pricing because I don't charge a lot for interpretation. It's really very reasonable if somebody wanted to get into this, it's not the biggest cost of the practice. But at the same time, my costs were prohibitive to her, so we just had to adjust for the economy so that we can make it available for those people.
Donna Piper: That's good to know. Being sick is expensive. The doctors and everyone, I'm all for paying the people that need to be paid. But all these things do add up when it comes down to it, especially when you're trying to figure out what's going on with you, and you're trying different things. So you talked that you read for it. So this imaging, can you walk me through a little bit? Do you need to be a licensed chiropractor or doctor? Or can you just be licensed to touch people's bodies? In the state of California, I think for a lot of different things, you have to have a license to touch someone's body like a massage therapies license, and you can do other modalities like counter strain and things like that. So what are the criteria that you would have to have in order to learn this technology? What are the process to actually learn it, and get the camera set up at either a clinic?
Dr. Robert Kane: So if somebody wanted to learn how to interpret thermal images, there's no licensing requirement to learn how to use it. On the other hand, what you're using it for would be subject to licensing requirements. So if you're using it in the medical field, if you're making medical decisions and medical calls in your interpretation, you need to have some sort of license that warrants it. So a chiropractor is what's called a portal of care. We're somebody that you can see, and we know where to refer to people. It's similar to what a primary care doctor would be. There's just a little bit of a difference there. So getting the education is one part, how you use the education is where the licensing comes in. Now, what I'm finding in my practice is that there's a lot of people that want to incorporate the technology into their practices, but they don't want to take the time to learn how to read because it is a learning curve. They do what they do with radiology. They have maybe a cursory understanding of it, but then they send things out to be professionally read, and that's where I would come in. I have doctors and technicians that send me images. They send me history information, and then I cross correlate everything with the thermal patterns, and then give them feedback as to what's what I think might be going on in the body.
Donna Piper: Oh, great. So they can have the technology in their office, but also have you as a resource. Do you do those training sessions? Do you offer anything that you conduct or have to offer for practitioners on either of those routes whether they just want to learn how to use the equipment, or if they want to learn how to read it?
Dr. Robert Kane: I currently have a training course for technicians to have them set up a lab and capture images properly. As I said, there's a lot of protocols involved in this, so we want to make sure that they understand it, and they also have an understanding as to what it's going to be used for. I'm developing some very simplistic interpretation courses. These are designed for limited application. Meaning, it's not going to get you the knowledge base that I have, but it will be enough for you to either follow along with a professionally generated report, or do limited interpretation in your own practice. So for example, I work with a lot of doctors that are doing gut health right, probiotic balances, the microbiome and things like that and they just want to see, is the abdomen temperature in a generally normal state of homeostasis? Or is it altered? They're not interested in knowing what organ could that be, or what diagnostic criteria is that. All they want to know is normal, abnormal. So I'm looking at teaching some of those basics, so that if they're just looking to get some feedback, they've gotten their diagnostics everywhere else. But they want to do, let's say a colonic or GI flush, or some kind of detoxification or introducing new probiotics. They can do pre and post imaging, and get that data very quickly.
Donna Piper: If they're interested, or if anyone out there is listening, would they just go to your website? Or do you conduct it yourself? Are you a teacher through a different organization?
Dr. Robert Kane: Yeah. I'd say they should get in touch with me through my website, and then what I'll do is either address it myself or send them to the right place where they need to go.
Donna Piper: Okay, great. And then, is the equipment itself a huge investment? Is it very expensive to get thermal imaging equipment?
Dr. Robert Kane: For those who wanted to buy the equipment, I'd say the average camera costs for the whole system is between 20 and 40,000. You don't need the $40,000. Those just have a lot of bells and whistles that are convenient. So if you've had that to invest, great. But if you go for a camera down in the low 20,000, you're not going to get a bad unit, and it'll end up coming out on a lease program, talking maybe $500 a month.
Donna Piper: Oh, that's great. Nice additional tool. It's not really that cost prohibitive to do it. And the education part that they could hire you to do the interpretation.
Dr. Robert Kane: Or if they want to do it on their own, I can direct them to the associations where they can get more formal training. I'm happy either way. I just find a lot of doctors that get excited, and then they're faced with the enormous amount of things they're doing on a daily basis, and this just becomes one more thing for them to do. And now, you have a very expensive piece of furniture in your office that isn't being used.
Donna Piper: Yeah. Exactly. I mean it does sound like, oh, this would be great. But then you really do want the knowledge of how to use and to interpret effectively for whatever your parameters are of your practice and whatever your scope is.
Dr. Robert Kane: My whole interpretation business is based upon helping health care providers do what they do best by giving them that feedback, and then giving the patient and the general population feedback so that they can get an idea of where their next step is, where they need to go.
Donna Piper: And with that, have you ever come across anyone who asked you to look at EDS, or any connective tissue disorders? Is thermal imaging something you can look at like, I'm also hyper mobile, and so lipedema and EDS obviously is connective tissue. So some of my gut stuff is connective tissue. Can you see that on a thermal image? Or does it read hot or cold? Or is it a little bit more nuanced?
Dr. Robert Kane: A little more nuanced because what we have to look at is what happened to the connective tissue, and how is the circulation affected in that situation. Now, some of the connective tissue is down too deep, so we're not seeing it. So in that case, we need something that would make it show up at the surface. A lot of times, it's either a nerve reflex, or there's enough heat building up, or it's close enough to the surface where we can see it. So there's a lot of variables. I wouldn't be able to sit there and say yes or no, or is it valuable? I think there's some possibilities. But I don't think we've got that particular condition dialed in at the same level as some of the others.
Donna Piper: Yeah. I think that all my conditions are a little more on the fringe of how much information you have, and the allopathic research to compare to. Not that it doesn't exist, but there's not a lot of research. Then you could say, all these 10,000 study participants, all these things happen. We gave them thermo imaging, and then looked at all these things that are aligned. They're hot in this place, or cold in that other if they have this thing going on.
Dr. Robert Kane: We're cross correlating physiology with the image. So we're saying, what physiologically happens with this condition to the tissue? How could that potentially affect the heat? Do I see a change that looks like it could be caused by that condition? If we're talking about rheumatoid arthritis, which is a big one, we see heat over joints. It's usually symmetrical for most of the time, but we can see that,, and it can be tracked. So the value isn't necessarily in the diagnosis of it because they've already gotten it, but it's the tracking as to how effective the treatment is. And is the condition worsening or getting better over time? We have something a little more than symptoms and how everything looks visually, and X-ray to evaluate it. What is the heat doing? If we see increased heat patterns, we have more inflammation. If we see fewer heat patterns, inflammation seems to be decreasing.
Donna Piper: That would be a great test. I'm just thinking out loud because lipedema is very under diagnosed, and it has the main thing with the symptoms. So you have your fat, which is visible. But there's a lot of pain, inflammation and lack of mobility, and then it starts affecting hips and things. So it'd be interesting, just as an aside, to look at that on your body to see because the problem with these illnesses that I'm talking about is that when you go to your doctor, if I don't look sick all the time, you wouldn't see like, oh, my gosh, she looks like she has all these things, and she's in constant pain. It's something that I've gotten adept at masking. So when people look at me, they're like, oh, it's probably diet, exercise. Like the normal stuff.What's your age? I'm sure it's your hormones. But having a test like that to look at this is where I'm feeling pain constantly, and then having a test if it shows high heat in those areas, it would be a nice diagnostic tool that is not just subjective to have and could point too, which sounds even better for prevention, earlier detection and all of these things that we talked about. Maybe not rheumatoid arthritis because that could be genetic. Or maybe EDS, because that's genetic. That's debatable. But a lot of the other things that if you know you have it, then you can change your lifestyle earlier to help manage, and maybe not prevent it all the way, but do a lot more to prevent it. Hopefully, the next phase is all about prevention and understanding, and a tool to give you real time feedback to make sure you're on the right track.
Dr. Robert Kane: Exactly. I don't have the evidence right now to say that it can be prevented. We have a lot of evidence with different conditions to say that risk factors can be lowered. Even with these systemic diseases that are going on, we know that stress is a factor. We know that our sugar balance is a factor. We know that there's different things that influence all systemic diseases. So to be able to get a baseline, take an action and then see how the body changes can be really valuable feedback as we attempt to move closer and closer to prevention.
Donna Piper: Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, thank you so much for all this information. I learned a lot. I hope my questions are out there. I know that you've been doing it for a while, so it's not new to you. This technology has been groundbreaking, and you're on the forefront of that. I really feel like a lot of times when people think like, oh, they just heard of something. You have been working on it for a really long time, and it's a passion. So it's not new, but maybe new to a wider audience. I really do hope that this technology gets into the hands of many people, including segues into more traditional hospitals, universities and with AI. It's interesting that the Department of Defense funded it. They are looking at so many different things in the future. I'm sure you're having that, in order for an AI to detect something wrong in the human body, they would need something like a thermal scan, depending on how advanced they get. Some people think that everything's going to AI, but if they were able to diagnose it, I would think that they would need your technology overlaid with other parts of the human body in order to read it.
Dr. Robert Kane: Thermal imaging is not diagnostic, let's say for breast cancer. It's just to direct other tests. That's the goal. The AI is just going to be used to try to get to the source of the problem faster and more reliably. There's some really good algorithms going on right now. A lot of the research is being done in Latin America, Europe, Asia. There's tremendous research coming out on that. There's an Indian company that already has their unit in hospitals with an AI algorithm for breast cancer. So this stuff is not that far away. As those types of things get proven more and more, then we might be able to talk, could this be used as a replacement for mammography as primary screening? Not complete replacement, but for primary screening. It's not there yet. But I think that with AI algorithms and more research, we've got a shot. We're just gonna have to see how it plays out.
Donna Piper: Yeah, it would be amazing. So if anyone's young out there, if you're listening and you have daughters or even sons, because there's all sorts of cancers with men as well, go to those links and get some baselines started if that's within your reach financially. But I do think that it's important to have some diagnostic tools as you go through this. I know just from talking to you, I wish I would have known about this before I started to change everything and really address all my issues, kind of give me a scan of where I'm at because it is subjective. Even when I do a lot of different treatments, I don't always know if they're working or not because things are happening on a cellular level or inside that I can't really feel. There's no tactile feel. I have so many aspects, so I just highly recommend that I'm going to go find a provider in my area to get that done, and I'll let you know, Dr. Kane. In the future if you want to come back, I'll have my test that I could show you, so we could talk a little bit more about that. I really do think that having an additional voice, and it sounds like this is just an additional sort of like, okay, this is what my doctor says, I'm doing that. I'm going to come in with this either to help support what they've already found, or help me. Like you said, once you have that, maybe they could get additional tests. This could be the vehicle to explore more. So either it confirms what you're already seeing, or it might be like, uh, it's time to dive a little bit deeper. And those things also give you peace of mind. Because unfortunately, you said you've seen so many people with breast cancer, so many women. And there's so many other different types of cancer. But if you can prevent or start to prevent that, or see it earlier, I really do think that it can at least help your journey more with some more support. I think the more supportive tools we have, the better.Is there any final words or anything we didn't say that you really want to say about thermal imaging and what you do, or to anyone out there about health in general?
Dr. Robert Kane: Well, thank you for having me on and giving me the opportunity to speak. I really appreciate it. I hope I didn't talk too much in Latin and Greek, and what I was saying was understandable. I know that sometimes, the bane of having a clinical brain, you use terms and things that aren't there. But my biggest message is it's a balance between getting information and trusting experts. And it's really important that as a patient, and this is true for me too, when I'm in the healthcare arena, you just have to be your own advocate, and you have to decide who you can trust. Find those doctors, find those sources that you trust, and then work with them, because it's not something you could do by yourself. You can't just randomly search on the internet and find out different things. Ultimately, you need someone to guide you, and that's what an expert's there for. My job is to provide tools. I think thermal imaging is a wonderful tool to give feedback, and I'm going to make sure it's available in as many places as possible so that anybody out there looking for feedback on their condition, whether it's diagnostics, or risk reduction or treatment, that that's available for them for them they have all the pieces. Because that's what we're trying to do, to make sure that there's more pieces so we can get better results.
Donna Piper: Beautifully said. Perfect. And I support you fully on your mission. So if anyone is interested in learning or wanting to bring that to their provider or practitioner, if you have a functional person, or you think that this would fit right in, I highly recommend that you contact Dr. Kane. All of this information will be in the show notes, so thank you again for listening. Bye for now.
Dr. Robert Kane: Great. Bye, bye.
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