PODCAST INTRO: Hey, beautiful soul, and welcome to Dear Body, I'm Listening, the podcast for women living with chronic pain, mysterious symptoms and invisible illness. I am your host, Donna Piper, movement therapist, pilates instructor and chronic illness navigator. The space is for the ones who've tried everything, felt dismissed and are still searching for answers. If you've ever felt like your body's speaking a language no one else understands, you are not crazy, and you are not alone. Here we go beyond diagnosis and let you know what diagnosis you try to seek. We talk about swelling, fatigue, brain fog, body shame, nothing is off the table. We explore healing through somatic spirituality, movement and truth telling, because healing isn't linear, and either are we.
________________
Donna Piper: Welcome back everyone to the podcast, Dear Body, I'm Listening. Again, I'm Donna Piper. And today, I'm joined by Leslyn Keith. I'm so excited to have her here. She is a Certified Lymphedema Therapist with a clinical doctorate in occupational therapy emphasizing lymphedema and obesity. She has treated lymphatic and fat disorders for over 25 years, and conducts research, consults and lectures on lymphedema/lipedema and obesity nationally, and internationally. I am so excited that she's here today because I've met her through her online community, which she directs as the Lymphatic Lifestyle Solution, and that's for weight management and lymphedema. And her major focus in that group, and why I joined, is the ketogenic diet. Looking at diet, and how it affects and can help fat disorders like mine, lipedema. And subsequently helps other things that I have, like mast cell, chronic fatigue, EDS and POTS. So welcome, Leslyn. Is there anything you would want to say about who you are, anything that I missed?
Leslyn Keith: Thank you so much for having me, Donna. It's been a pleasure working with you in all the various places that we have come across each other, and you know you have just a wealth of knowledge yourself because you spent so much time trying to listen to your body and figure out what it needs. And it's just been a pleasure working with you, and trying to figure out what would be good things for your situation. We've come across a few, so it's been an interesting journey, and I really appreciate you.
Donna Piper: Oh, thank you so much. And like I said, food is one of those things where, for everyone has an opinion on food, I think it's what we need to survive. And then when you come across complications in your health, and like me, I was on a diet or a cleanse for 40 years because I was trying to figure out why my body didn't respond. So then, once I got my lipedema and mast cell diagnosis from Dr. Eicher, as she gave me The Swiss Interest Group Histamine Intolerance, and basically everything I was eating was making me sick. So then I searched high and low, and I found you. It was about ketogenic and lipedema. In addition to histamine, the lipedema is the one that I'm more concerned about because it can create volume with who knows why. I'm sure you know more than I do about the science of that. But still, I wanted to make sure my food, what I could eat was servicing the body that I had with all these conditions. So I would really love to start with that. You have dedicated most of your career, or all your career to lymphatic disorders like lymphedema and lipedema, but what first drew you to this work, and how did keto become part of your clinical focus and just your lifestyle?
Leslyn Keith: I started out treating lymphedema. I took a lymphedema certification course, and I started treating it. I just love the work because it was so concrete. Someone came into my office, their arm or their leg was this big, and then we treated it, and then it became this big. It was very obvious that we were doing a good job. But then gradually, more and more of my patients were becoming obese. More and more of my patients were coming with lipedema, which is sometimes confused with obesity or lymphedema. And so I was seeing a larger population of those people, and it wasn't working so well. The standard things that we did for lymphedema when I was working on lipedema or obesity, it didn't seem to have as much of an effect. So during our massage or depression wrapping, doing our exercise, it would do a little bit, but it just didn't do the job. And at the same time, one of my patients, she said, this is an interesting book. Take a look at it. And it was Gary Taubes, Why We Get Fat. And I kind of, that doesn't seem to apply to me at all. And so I just left it there for months and months. Finally read it, and that was the turning point because he said that it's not eating less, moving more for anybody. I mean, especially not for lipedema. But that wasn't the reason why people were putting on pounds as they age. And I came to believe that this was pretty central for lipedema as well.
And during that time, I also came to realize that when someone had lymphedema, that's a collection of fluid, usually secondary to cancer treatment. you have that fluid, it quickly became not just fluid, it also became fat. And whether or not they were overweight or had any issues with that at all, that area in their body that had chronic swelling developed, it started getting fat in there too. And so you can massage and squeeze that all you want, but it's not going to get smaller. Fat doesn't get out of there that way. So I really thought, okay, I got to do something to help with my patients who have obesity. I got to do something that's going to help with lipedema. I got to do something that's going to help with the fat that is trapped in the arms and legs of people that have lymphedema. And so I started wishing more of what Gary Taubes was saying in his book, Why We Got Fat. And it seemed to be all the carbohydrates that we eat. And so on that premise, I said, Okay, I'll do it myself. I'll make sure that this is, you know, a satisfying way to eat. I said, well, let's see if any of my patients want to do it. And we did. And months later they would come back and say, hey, it worked. And we had no idea what we're doing. We just said, stop eating bread and potatoes. Let's see what happens. So it was very informal at that place, but they said that it worked. And so I specifically went to get my doctorate so I could have a university that would back me up to do a study. I didn't know how else to study.
I should tell everybody who's listening, this is absolutely the wrong way to go about studying. You don't go deciding on what you already want to prove and stuff. You should do research to find out what happens. So this was not right, but this is what I did because I was so excited about the prospect that it seemed to be working for some of my patients. So I did a small pilot study where I had a group of my patients. Some of them had lipedema, but not formally diagnosed, because it's very hard to get a diagnosis, but I knew that they probably had lipedema. So we had 12. Started out with 12 patients who had a difficulty with their weight and couldn't manage their lymphedema and lipedema, and so they wanted to be in this lifestyle group with me. Out of the 12 sessions, I think 8 of them focused just on ketogenic diet. The hardest thing for people to do is adopt dietary change. Then we had a couple of sessions on sleep, on stress management, and on physical activity. But the main booth was really focused on ketogenic diets, and the ones that decided to change how they ate, and it worked. It worked so well for those that it pulled the averages up for the entire group. So we ended up with 10 people finishing, and 6 people using the diet, and they did so well. Even though the four who didn't use a diet didn't do much, it made the average for the entire group. I thought, okay, this is it. I found a way that people can lose weight. And therefore, their lymphedema and their lipedema get better. Because I was all about, we just need a way for the fluid to be able to travel better because we've lost weight.
Well, Donna, what was so exciting when I found out after probably a decade of trying this with people is way more than that, and it's just what you're finding out with how it works with mast cells and other conditions that you have. There's something that is inflammatory about a high carbohydrate diet, and it's particularly inflammatory to the lymphatics, so they don't work as well. So now, you get more pain, and you get blocked up fluid and all this kind of stuff when you're eating a diet that's high in carbohydrates. There is something particularly healing about healthy dietary fat. And so those two things work on the lymphatic system, whether you lose any weight or not. By eating this way, your lymphatics work better, and you feel better, and your conditions are better managed. In the research they're doing right now with lipedema and ketogenic diets, they're finding that they have good outcomes before they lose any weight, before they lose any fat. So that's why I really come to believe it's way more than just weight that we're dealing with. It's way more than getting this excess fat. That is certainly beneficial. But just this, as my partner, Robert Erkstam says, feels better more often. We just want to feel better more often.
Donna Piper: That's so true. A couple of things that you said, even with people that don't have lipedema, is that it isn't a fat disorder. If they have lymphedema, they still would because the swelling and the fluid collects in that area that would turn to fat. It would bring it in.
Leslyn Keith: Yes. It would encourage fat growth in that area. So pretty soon, you have more fat trapped in your arm or your leg. Then you have fluid.
Donna Piper: Oh, so interesting. And then full circle back to what you're saying about, because lipedema is one of the harder ones. Obviously, we're dealing with fat. You can't squeeze it out, which so many times I wish you could. I wish that you could push it through. That's not the reality. But having the fat, so no low carbs or no carbs and healthy fats heal the system. For all of my things and all the research, and you probably know this better, having for whatever reason why my lymphatic system stopped working as well, that created or helped create, or helped exacerbate all the other conditions I have. This really does heal the lymphatics first, which you really need to help, even bring the fat out, right?
Leslyn Keith: Yes. One thing that we noticed was that some people wouldn't notice an immediate response on the scale, but many people wouldn't. It's hard to keep doing a dietary plan if you're not seeing that number go down. And so we try to impress upon people that you have to heal first, then the pounds come off. And so we tried to encourage people having multiple ways of seeing that things are different. What's your energy level? What's your skin feeling like? Your hair and nails, what do they like? How are your clothes fitting? We have this one woman who sent in a picture of herself 30 days of doing a ketogenic diet, and obviously slimmer. She has lipedema, and she's obviously slimmer after 30 days. She said that the scale looked exactly the same, no change on the scale. So her body composition was changing. Her pain was less. Her energy level was better. It's got to be about all those other non scale victories, which we call that are telling you that you are healing, and you're doing better. For a lot of people, that pain reduction or resolution is the ultimate motivator because they go into it thinking, I just want the scale to go down. But if in two weeks, they have a lot less pain, well, I'm going to stick with this way of eating just because of that. Because that's huge.
Donna Piper: Yes. Definitely what I noticed is walking ambulatory issues of the progression. If I can control the progression, great. But really, to be able to walk and to have less pain with lipedema was really my motivating factor. And I am, as you know, an under eater because of the lipedema. Not everyone has that, but I tend to not have my hungry sensations. Whatever that is, I don't have a good read on that. So having a diet that I know is going to help heal me and kind of motivates me to eat a little bit more, as opposed to just my hunger sensation. So that is definitely like a good factor. And I even went down because the cross section from mast cell, histamine stuff to keto was so low. We talked about it, and I mainly went on a carnivore diet, mainly. And everyone there is about that.
Leslyn Keith: Yes. And carnivore is basically an animal sourced food. Some people will have a few plants here and there, but almost exclusively animal sourced. And the thing about that and mast cell activation syndrome and histamine, stuff like that, plants tend to be a higher source of those things. You can get it from animal source foods, but it has to do with their preparation and storage method. And so as long as you avoid slow cooking, and this is really handy for a lot of people, but you avoid that batch cooking, and then you put it in the refrigerator and save it to eat during the week, those leftovers tend to be higher histamine. And so going to a more of an animal sourced diet, eliminating all the inflammatory chemicals that are in those plants. And then you can't have leftovers. You're going to just cook your steak for 10 minutes on the side and eat it, and then you're done. Then you can see a difference in your symptoms in the mast cell, and if you have difficulty with those high histamine foods. So I just think that this way of eating, it does seem to address many of the needs of that person that has these multiple conditions. I have a paper that I've working on with Siobhan Huggins and Carrie Reedy, a medical nutritionist in Australia, and we're putting together a paper about guidelines of eating a ketogenic diet or a carbohydrate restricted diet when you have lipedema, considering all the person's comorbidities. So if you have mast cells, or if you have hypothyroidism, or you have congestive heart failure, any variety, I mean, people don't come with just lipedema, right? So now, how do I adjust my diet? That's going to be health promoting for all of me. They're all together. For my depression, and all these various things. And it turns out that using a Keto or carnivore diet is the easiest to modify, to accommodate each of those individual needs due to your comorbidities, due to your preferences, just what you like to eat. All those things, we can do this in a way that is going to promote your health.
Donna Piper: That is really amazing. Are you working on it right now?
Leslyn Keith: It's been submitted. It's under the review process, and so we hope that it is going to be out soon. One of the authors, Carrie Reedy, has been accepted to speak at a Lipoedema Conference in Australia in August. And she's going to be talking about our paper, so we hope that it is published at that time. So yes, I'm very excited about that.
Donna Piper: Well, let me know so I could update the links too, to have a source like that, because it is complicated. Even if you have lipedema, maybe you do have the obesity component. And maybe your opposite. You didn't know you had lipedema until you lost weight or went on some GLP once. I want to talk about, is there any research, or what have you seen anecdotally between proteins and how proteins help the lymphatic system, or getting more protein in your diet to support all these conditions that we have?
Leslyn Keith: Excellent point. Interestingly, another person who's going to be presenting in Australia, the keynote speaker, matter of fact, is Dr. Gabrielle Farber, and she's been treating lipedema in her clinic in Germany using what she calls a protein optimized ketogenic diet. She finds that many of her patients have been using more of a plant sourced way of eating, usually restricting their calories, restricting their fat, and there has been some research that shows that women with lipedema tend to have reduced lean mass. And so she really felt like the protein needed to be emphasized for this population. And so she makes sure that they have plenty of protein in their diet. She does it depending on their body mass index and stuff like that. She figures out how many grams of protein they should be having on average per day. And it's very necessary for that one thing to maintain their muscle mass. And hopefully, even building it up. I think there was a concern that to eating too much protein, if you have excess protein through the body process called gluconeogenesis, that you would convert that protein you ate into sugar. And now, you would not lose fat because you would be eating too much sugar and causing an insulin response. And it turns out that that is not true. Your body does not store or convert protein. It all depends on what you need. And so if you're eating some protein, it uses it or it excretes it so you don't convert it to sugars and have no way of storing it. Now, carbohydrates and fat, you can store that because your body says, I'm going to need energy in the future. So you ate all this energy, and I can't use it right now so I'm going to save it for later. So those things will be stored.
But you if you eat excess protein, and it's pretty satiating so you typically don't eat excess. But if you do, then you're just going to excrete the excess. So for anybody out there who's listening, one thing that I would say is to prioritize protein as Dr. Benjamin Bikman says. He has these great three rules that can help you if you're trying to adopt a diet that has less carbohydrates in it. One is to prioritize proteins, just as you're saying. And two is control your carbs. And for some people that may be like yourself trying to go down to zero on a carnivore diet, but other people, it may be just cutting their intake in half. See what works for you. And then the last one is filled with fat. There was a misconception that every ketogenic diet was the same, and we had to use the model that we used to treat epilepsy in the turn of the last century. In the early 1900s before there were medications, they used the ketogenic diet, and they had very, very low carbohydrates. But 80% of calories were coming from fat, and they're usually not from good sources.
So you're talking about those highly processed seed oils and things like that, that's how they were giving these children. Usually they're fat, and so they don't have very much protein at all. So it was mostly a fat diet. It controls the seizures, but it probably caused deficiencies and other health issues because it wasn't a good source of fat, and they didn't have enough protein. And so now, we're finding other conditions. Proteins like lipedema, like mast cell activation syndrome, perhaps EDS, although there hasn't been a lot of research in that area, that we don't need it to be 80% fat. The reason the ketogenic diet gets its name is because you're generating ketones as a source of energy by your diet, you're not eating glucose, or sugar, or carbs. So you're using fat turning into ketones to give yourself energy. And so when you have generated a lot of ketones, you're said to be in ketosis. And the theory for epilepsy was maintaining a level of ketosis constantly generating those ketones to keep the seizures from happening. But do we need to be in a constant state of ketosis? For lipedema, for instance. Probably not to fight obesity, probably not. We can probably go in and out of ketosis so we don't need that 80% fat. Some people may only have 40 or 50% of fat with their diet, more than they typically would in a standard American diet. They're probably having 20 to 25% of fat. So just increasing it a little bit up to 40 or 50 may help you meet your goals. You don't necessarily have to go up to that 80% fat. Now, people who are on a carnivore diet are only having protein and fat, and that is sometimes the hard thing to figure out. What is the best thing for me? Should I have more protein, or should I have more fat? And it sometimes takes a little bit of experimentation to see what you feel best.
Donna Piper: Yeah. What kind of fat, is it butter or tallow? And also, where does it optimize? But I definitely think there's a stage of healing. I know for myself, and anecdotally from others, that higher fat at the beginning does help. Whatever the body is deficient in, whatever you'll know the size behind that, but fat seems to be healing. And then protein definitely is necessary, because I came from, I was a vegetarian since I was 13. And all these years, I was doing all these things that were very healthy. I did marathons, I did all that stuff, and I still ended up with all of these things. And the interesting thing, if anyone's listening, is sometimes your body is missing the thing that you like. It's more trendy to be plant based. It was vegetarian for all the years when I went to the small, random health food store that had that. And there is something good about making your own things, but it's what you're eating. What I found is definitely focusing on protein to help all the science, but just as a layman focusing on protein and then eating fat. There was a point where my body was craving more fat because I was a teenager in the 80s and up. So fat was bad. Fat was the enemy. Fat would make you fat. And that is really not true. And if you have anything you would like to say about fats and the benefit to dispel this thing, even that you were inundated with low fat was like, yes, really kind of the worst thing for hormones and all those things.
Leslyn Keith: It's quite a disservice that we have the same word for body fat as what we eat in dietary fat. Because I think that it's very easy to come to the conclusion that if I eat fat, it will make me become more fat. And it's simply not true. It is the carbohydrates that get turned into fat in your body. And if you're eating a high carbohydrate and a high fat diet, those sugary desserts and stuff like that, they have lots of fat and sugar in them, then you're going to be storing all of that. But if you take away one energy source, all that sugar that you're eating, all that starch that you're eating, you take away that, then your body has to use the fat that you're eating, and your stored body fat for energy. And also when you eat lots of fat and you don't eat lots of carbs, your body starts saying, oh, well, life is plentiful. It's safe. It's safe for me to rev up my metabolism and start having things burn hotter, and start having more energy because I know there is plenty of food. Before, I was in this famine situation when I was eating super low calorie, hardly any food, no fat. That was almost starvation. Your body had to protect itself. It didn't just lower its metabolism for no good reason. It was a logical response to not having enough resources. It hunkered down and used less energy because less energy was coming in so I would think about those types of fat that are acceptable to you, that you like the taste of, that you feel good about eating.
Most people are fine with butter, for instance. Start with that, and try to remove the bad fats from your diet. And that would be like the fake fats, like margarine. Like when they make oil out of a seed, and they have to heat it up a whole lot, they have to add a bunch of chemicals to it. So you're talking about a highly processed, not a fresh type of olive oil. Or something where you just squeeze the olive, and you get the oil out of it. You just squeeze the coconut, or you squeeze the avocado and you get oil. But these little hard seeds in order to produce the oil, it's industrialized, it's lubricant, it is not human. And what they're finding out now is that it creates inflammation. And when you're talking about having a chronic condition that is probably a highly inflammatory state, you're just feeding that inflammation. So find those fats. Hopefully, some from animal sources as well as from plant sources. If you enjoy bacon, if you enjoy a certain type of meat, eating the fat that comes along with that meat, fatty fish eggs. Eggs are wonderful. The yolk is all fat. Find those things that you enjoy. I don't think you need any plant sources at all, but you can definitely have a mixed source of plant and animal sources of fat that are going to be healing for you, and they're going to taste good.
Donna Piper: Yeah. That is definitely a good mix. You mentioned the inflammation, and I wanted to talk a little bit more about that. If someone's out there listening and they're like, well, doctors aren't my thing. Or they haven't had the best relationship with them because you come in saying one thing, and they're like, oh no, you're fine. How does someone know if their lymphatics are a little sluggish? I know you've a couple books, The Lymphatic Code. I know you're writing a few more books about things. But just as someone that doesn't really know about any of that stuff that could be listening, how would you know that your lymphatics are maybe sluggish, or that your body is inflamed? If your symptoms aren't so severe that they feel like, oh, my gosh, there's something wrong with me. Are there any signs?
Leslyn Keith: The most obvious that people will see is swelling. It might be swelling that just appears at the end of the day, or when it's really hot, or when you've been standing a lot and not moving, or it might be swelling that it's just always there. The ankles are always swollen. Parts of your body are chronically swollen, that's the most obvious one. But there's a lot that is not so obvious. Dr. Stanley Rockson, who's really a big researcher in the lymphatic field. He said at a conference a couple years ago, pretty soon, people are going to be treating every kind of condition by treating the lymphatics, because the lymphatics are involved in every system, every organ in your body. And so we'll treat heart conditions by treating the lymphatics. So when the lymphatics are not working well, the heart cannot work very well. You'll be treating gastrointestinal issues by treating the lymphatics. They're finding out in things like Crohn's disease and colitis that the lymphatics, which take nutrients out of. Your intestine, the lymphatics are inflamed. They're not working so well. So we get stuff moving the wrong way, and then you get GI symptoms. So every system in your body, if you have problems with your kidneys, that could be helping your lymphatics. If you have problems with liver function, it could be helped by helping your lymphatics. And I think the first line to help your lymphatic system function better is something that you do every day, and probably several times a day you eat. And so you're going to try to eat things that are going to be supportive to your lymphatics, and not inflammatory to your impacts.
Donna Piper: That is such a great thing because I was thinking, I know you gave some really good tips about where to start up your protein, look at your carbs, and try to lessen them, and then add some fat. That's good. And even if you want to just give yourself a self experiment out there, let's see. I'm not sure how inflamed, or I do have swelling at the end of the day, and I thought that was just normal. And if it's not normal, but I'm hearing it's not normal to have swelling at the end of the day is to play around with your food sources a little bit to find a way to eat more protein, eat more healthy fats, and reduce the things that are highly processed in sugar, basically.
Leslyn Keith: People can start with just no longer having sugar sodas. You can start with saying, okay, I'm not going to have any bread, no baked goods. I'm going to start with that. The only thing I would caution people is we're talking with someone who has multiple conditions, probably is taking multiple medications, and there is an issue. You need to have a medical provider who is monitoring you and is going to prescribe your medications. Because what happens is that, as you become healthier, if you continue on that same dose of medication, you are over medicated. So you're on that medication that is bringing your blood pressure down because it's too high, and now you eat in a way that is bringing your blood pressure down. And now, you're still taking the medication, and it takes it really down. So I have a resource for you, the Society of Metabolic Health Practitioners. These are people, mostly in the US that are all healthcare practitioners, many of whom are well. They all use carbohydrate restriction or ketogenic diets in their practice, and the ones that are physicians can monitor you and prescribe your medication as needed. People are using this way of eating for chronic mental illness. People who have been depressed their whole life, people who have schizophrenia, people who have serious mental illnesses, they're using this way of eating. You gotta bet that the medication they're taking for those psychiatric illnesses., that's got to be adjusted right away. So that's why I caution some people to just start changing their diet right away without having anybody to monitor them. You could run into trouble with the typical person who is not on any medications, you can see what works for me. Should I go straight to carnivore, which I think is delicious? Or do I want to just play around with and just cut out? I think I started with bread, pasta, rice and potatoes. I cut out those four things.
Donna Piper: How long have you been eating this way? And how long did it take you? Did you miss those things?
Leslyn Keith: I've never been a foodie. I've never got into cooking. So for me, it wasn't a difficult thing, but I still needed to do it myself before I could help a patient who wanted to do this way of eating. So I had to at least see what it was like. Now, I have experimented with not having some things that are definitely on a ketogenic diet that I love. I love dairy. Okay, what would it be like for me to not have any dairy? I could do it. I could stick to it. It wasn't fun, it wasn't pleasurable, but it was an interesting experiment to do that. At least I can see, as many of my patients, what they had to cut out was something that was not on a ketogenic diet, and it was very hard to, just the thought of going the rest of your life without X, whatever that favorite carb food is daunting, and so I wanted to experience that. And I did. I definitely did. I love my dairy. I want to have every kind of dairy, and I want to have it every day, so that was hard. It's something that you do. For a lot of people, it can be a short period of time, maybe up to a month. And once you get past that, it's not bad. It's kind of like if you continue having that one cigarette a day, that craving stays alive and it never leaves you. I have known people who are sober alcoholics. It's still alive. That urge to want to have a drink, I think partly because they've now changed to sugar, and that it's kind of that same mechanism that's feeding it. So if you have a little bit of that thing that is not good for you, it really makes it difficult to avoid temptations because that craving is still so alive. Yeah,
Donna Piper: That's such a good point, because it's true. You have just enough of it, and you think like, oh, just a little. But once you kind of let it go and then see what it's like to adjust without it, it's easier to adjust. Like, oh, I just don't even have it anymore. That makes sense. All of these things are, in my opinion, and you probably see it with all of your patients too, it's a difficult illness. There's probably harder illnesses like cancer and things like that. But because it's affects your daily life, and it is not so obvious that you're sick, and then trying to figure out all of the different ideas, or finding a doctor that will listen to you to prescribe things, and being a self experiment when you don't have any energy, or you have brain fog, like me, all these things, it's very daunting and can be overwhelming. I love that you make it very simple.
Leslyn Keith: It's daunting because of how people treat you, and how they perceive you. Someone who has lipedema is seen by most people as obese, and therefore your fault. Because most people see obesity, and this is totally wrong. They see obesity as a lifestyle of poor willpower, and it is your fault that you're there. Say you're someone with lipedema who is or is not obese. You figured out about a ketogenic diet. You go in the grocery store and buy a gallon of cream and a whole bunch of steaks, and you're in line getting those groceries, and everybody is looking at you with that anti fat bias. See, she's doing it to herself. I can tell by looking at her cart. It's another thing that makes it hard to do this way of eating because of that bias that's out there.
Donna Piper: And I'm really glad that you're saying that, to put a voice to it, because it is actually the truth of it. With the research that you've done, the clients you have, if you experiment on yourself, that's actually more healing to your body and does all these other unseen things helps your lymphatics, helps your inflammation, helps your mood and everything. There's so many things to increase your energy that is a true bias that you just also have to get. It's like another hurdle to get over.
Leslyn Keith: You talk about having a problem with brain fog. Now, you're in this group, and you want to do this way of eating. It's hard because of your brain fog so you do this way of eating because it is going to help your brain fog. But until you get there, it's hard to understand, okay, minute to minute, what am I supposed to be doing?
Donna Piper: It's so true, that's why your group is like a lifeline for me because I have all this information, and then I just could retain it. It just didn't make sense. I had those capacities before, but it's like, okay, so why do I want to be in ketosis? How does that happen? What do I need to eat? And it seems very basic. But I think when you're trying to figure this out, and you have limited energy, especially if you're like me, you can't batch cook. So what can I cook with my energy? And it's beautiful to have your group where you could talk about that stuff. I think I really asked the question last month or our last session, but then it kind of clicked because you need that support about food, and that you're so knowledgeable, and you have such a passion for it. And that is another thing I really love about you. You know all about the lymphatics and such important research to look at, or an educated way system. But then you also look at a very practical thing that you could do to heal it with what you put in your mouth, because we have to feed ourselves every day, so that you're so passionate about both. It's like the most perfect marriage with someone going through chronic illnesses. So anyone out there, I highly recommend finding Leslyn in whatever capacity you can to be with her. I'll leave her links below. I really appreciate all your time. I could talk to you about 10 other topics, which I think I have listed. But the one thing I really would like to ask you to end with, and I know for me if I would have known that lipedema was a thing when I was 15, how I viewed my body, and how I kind of viewed dieting or not dieting. All of those things would have been different even 10 years ago. So is there anything in that that you would like to share with that you wish you knew sooner? Or a light bulb moment that like, oh, gosh, if I would have known that, things would have been different. Not to go back, but to help anyone else on this journey that could get that information now, and doesn't have to wait 10 years?
Leslyn Keith: What I wish I knew when I first started my lymphatic practice was that it's not all about obesity, it's not all about weight. It is about giving your body the nutrients it needs to be healthy. And when I first started looking into this way of eating, I looked at, what's the best way for people to lose weight? I was not thinking about what is the most healthy for the lymphatic system. It's, what's the most healthy for the person? And because I've had some of my patients using this way of eating that didn't need to lose weight, and they found their lymphedema went down, they lost a bunch of weight and the lymphedema went down. They lost maybe two pounds, and the lymphedema went down a lot. So I wish that I had known it all about eating a healthy diet. And unfortunately, it's not the diet that we were told is healthy.
Donna Piper: That is the main thing. Not the diet that we're told. You need to kind of go through with all these disorders. And being in the medical profession and education, it's not fringe, it's just a fad. It's a natural way of eating, and really to kind of get the word out of there. It's not what you think it is. It's not the fat and all that stuff. Fat makes you fat, or the fat's gonna make you have a heart attack. It's actually the protein, and the fat are what your body needs in order to be healthy, in order to have this lymphatic system, which basically is your drainage system, correct?
Leslyn Keith: And it's your immune system, and it's your fluid balance system. The lymphatic system is so integral to your health, so it has many jobs besides waste removal, which is important. But it really is the basis to a healthy life.
Donna Piper: Well, beautiful. You just gave so much information. Some basics like changing your diet a little bit, we'll have that resource if you have our medication so that it doesn't interfere with your medication. But changing your diet enough to support the inflammation, that goes down to support the lymphatics that will make you healthy, which is a huge gift right there. So thank you again so much for joining me today, and you gave so much great information. And are there any final words or anything you'd like to say?
Leslyn Keith: I think we said it all. Like you said, we could keep talking forever on this. It was wonderful being here, Donna, and I really appreciate you.
Donna Piper: Oh, thank you so much.
________________
PODCAST OUTRO: If this episode made you feel even a little more seen, brought you a dose of clarity or pointed you toward your next step, please rate, review and share it with someone who's been quietly carrying the same questions. You can find some more resources, blog posts and healing tools over at donnapiper.com. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Until next time, Dear Body, I'm listening, and I am so glad you're here.
