INTRO: Hey, beautiful soul, and welcome to Dear Body, I'm Listening, the podcast for women navigating chronic symptoms, invisible illness and that daily dance between hope and exhaustion. If you've ever been told it's all in your head, well, this podcast is for you, because your body is not lying, and neither are you.
Hi, I'm Donna Piper, movement therapist, Pilates instructor and chronic illness navigator. After years of being dismissed and diagnosed, and doing everything, quote, unquote, right, but still getting sicker, I created this space to tell our truth. Here, we talk about swelling, brain fog, nervous system crashes, and the kind of symptoms that don't always show up on lab results. We're going to explore lymph breath, movement, self trust, latest research books, relationships, basically, everything, all from a place of compassion and honesty. This isn't about fixing your body. It's about finally being heard and getting some answers.
________________
Donna Piper: Hey, beautiful soul. Welcome back to Dear Body, I'm Listening. Today, I'm joined by someone whose work is about honest conversation and real life twists, Heather Nelson. Heather is the host of Life Conversations With A Twist, a podcast that spotlights women who are living boldly, leading with heart, and finding purpose to their pivots. She's also a connector at her core, the kind of person who builds community wherever she goes. What I love about Heather is she doesn't sugar coat the journey. She talks about the messy middle, the seasons of change, the body lessons, and the courage it takes to keep showing up as yourself when life rewrites the plan. In this episode, we're going to dive into what it means to listen to our stories, our bodies, and to each other, and how connection itself can be a part of the healing process. So grab your tea, take a deep breath, and let's jump into this conversation with Heather.
So welcome everyone. I have Heather Nelson here with me today. I'm really excited. We had a great conversation over on her podcast a few weeks ago, and she's just incredibly cool. She's very honest, and I just can't wait to learn a few things from her. One, she's great at connecting, and she is one of those natural people that just brings everyone together. And for those of us that are always by ourselves, this is her. I'm sure she's going to have some either inspo or some perspective on how to connect even when you're not feeling great. She also happens to work with someone that has a chronic illness, so she has a really cool perspective on what it's like on the other side. We know our side, and it's hard to explain when you're not in it and having it. But to have someone that can have a different perspective of what it's like, I think, is going to be really cool. And then finally, she has some really cool personal things that she does, but she's very generous. And if we have time, I definitely want to dive into her journey. So without further ado with all my talking, let's welcome, Heather.
Heather Nelson: Thank you, Donna. Thank you, so excited to be here. It's fun to be on the other side. As you mentioned, I'm a podcaster as well, and so it's always fun to be on the other side. But again, at the end of the day, it's all about connecting, and about conversation. Organic conversations and showing up authentically, I just love any of these conversations, who's ever leading it, so I'm really excited to be here today.
Donna Piper: Oh, thank you. So as we talked about that, let's talk about your podcast a little. What is your podcast? What was the inspo for that? And how do you feel about leading a podcast since you've been doing it for a while?
Heather Nelson: So my podcast is called Life Conversations With A Twist. My career has always been in sales, so I've always been in business development. I've always been in sales, more in the events industry. So hotels, venues, events, things like that. But most of my career has been connecting with people, taking them to lunch, having meetings with them, getting to know them. And I guess I have this personality or warmth about me that as soon as I meet someone, I make them feel safe, and they tell me their whole life story. So I've been the sounding board to a lot of amazing women and their stories and I thought to myself, how do I bring these people to my podcast? Have these conversations, and allow them to tell their journey? Because I think every woman has gone through some type of journey.
I meet women all the time, and I'm like, come on my podcast. And they're like, I haven't done anything cool. I don't have a twist. But I'm like, but you have a story, and we all have a story. And I really want women to embrace theirs and be okay with talking about it. Because really, at the end of the day, the goal is to inspire and empower other women to do the same. And so I feel like by me having these conversations with these women, there's people that listen in that might be going through the same thing, or know someone who's going through the same thing, and being able to know you're going to get through it, maybe some tips and tricks on how to get through it, or just creating connection, they can reach out to these guests, and really be a sounding board and support for each other. So that's kind of what the podcast is about. Most of the women who've been on have all kinds of stories, and Donna was on my podcast as well. They've been through a traumatic experience, they have health problems, they've gone through transitions in their career. I really, again, am embracing any journey, and so it's been really fun. I've been doing it for four years. Every single week for four years. What I love every day is being able to connect with women like you and women all over the world who are just doing really cool things. And so I will continue to do that. That is definitely my passion.
Donna Piper: That's beautiful. And what a great platform, and that you're embracing everyone because we do have all life stories, and there's always a twist. Whether we think it's kind of vanilla or not, there's always something that happens to us that it's not that straight path. I love that you're bringing everyone together and every week for four weeks, that is impressive. It really is because those in the podcast game and stuff, like there's a definitely that people get tired, or they do seasons, but you show up every week because your heart's there, and you really want to tell thousands of stories of women because it does trickle out like a web or a pebble. I can't think of all this.
Heather Nelson: This is interesting because, I'm not gonna lie, there's some days where I'm like, I don't really feel like engaging and being on. But as soon as I hit the start and I'm in a conversation with someone, I never regret it. I've never regretted a conversation, and I feel like the guests, when they come on my show, they come on at a certain time in my life, or even a certain type of day a week, or whatever it might be. I always walk away so inspired or just excited. So again, I also do it for my own personal feelings, support and inspiration, because there's never been an episode where I was like, that was awful. I wish I never did that. You know what I mean? I'm always just so excited to do it.
Donna Piper: That's beautiful, because that kind of connection is really what it's all about. We want to engage with another human to feel good. It's like, some of these stories sound like mine. I don't remember if I talked all about my trauma and stuff, but it doesn't have to be like, some stories probably aren't like, oh, my gosh, that's so beautiful and wonderful. And there's like rainbows and stuff. It might be for some really hard topics that they're divulging in the vulnerability, but that still means that there's the beauty in that connection of it that is inspiring. So thank you for giving me a platform and other women just to have a chance to speak, because I think that is listening and hearing, and having space to feel good to tell their stories. Like you said, you're really warm, and you are very warm, right off the bat, and you're willing to share your story with openness to that. I think that helps. Because the more we talk about things that we think are shameful or embarrassing, like, no one will get me, or we kind of hide it. Then the more we put our self esteem, it gets all twisted.
Heather Nelson: I just think we all need more real people, real authentic people. And it's so hard with social media as we know that it's hard to tell if this is real? Is this fake? Even just scrolling on social media, I'm like, is this photo even real anymore? You get to a point where like, is this real? And so I just find that so beautiful, that women can still show up and be authentic, and show them true selves, and show up with a big old zit on their lip, and it is what it is, right? It's part of life. And I think that we have to embrace that and be okay with it.
Donna Piper: I love that, because the real stuff is more exciting. At least it's alive. Like you said, is it real or not? It's not trying to be fake. That's not you. And people care more about people when they're really authentic.
Heather Nelson: And I also think like we all sit in a bubble and we're all in our own lives. Again, another part of this podcast is meeting women like you who have a story or have something that they're going on that I don't have any idea about. I have no education around it. I have no experience on it, but it gives me a different perspective. When I hear what other women are going through, I'm like, okay, yeah. So I had a bad day. I stubbed my toe, and my kids screamed at me. But there's people out there that are going through some really hard things. And I think by opening up these conversations and these stories, it's like, oh, okay. Maybe my life isn't so hard. And just having a little more appreciation for what other people are going through, you get a crabby person at the grocery store, well, you don't know what's on the other side of that crabbiness. They could have just lost their husband, or they could have a terminal illness, or just got diagnosed with cancer, or whatever it might be. And I think we just need to be a little bit more okay with knowing that people are having bad days and embracing= their journey and what's going on.
Donna Piper: I love that, because we don't know, right? There's so many things going on in your life, in my life, that we just have no idea what that moment is. And I think connecting as real people and seeing that it's not just, I love that you said that we're all in our bubbles, because we really are. How we interpret life is all through our perspective, and just to have that little moment of shift does also make us feel better. Because then we're not like, why is that person such a, you know what I mean? We're not spiraling into our own story about life and people, and negative situations. And I want to talk about that bubble a little bit more. Because I know for me, I was a very social person. And as I got worse with my illnesses, I didn't even really know it was quite happening all the time. But I had chronic pain and migraines. I have a friend that was a counselor. I always would cancel plans. Not because I wanted to, but it was just inevitable. These days, things I really want to do in the future. When I'm feeling good, I'd make plans. And then the day would come up and I'd have a migraine, or as I got more sick, it just physically wasn't possible for that. And I think connection is really, especially when you're in that perspective of, I want to connect. But then I don't want to be the friend that cancels, so then I stopped making the plans. To know you for a few times is that you really care about people, and that's really what sales is. If you care about people, you want to give them what they want. And if you have what they want, then it's easier for them to buy what you want, right? But it's really more of a natural like, you care about people so you want them to have what they want. So what would you say about people like me that tend to isolate? We don't even have to talk about chronic illness. I know there's millions of people that have different reasons why they don't interact, but do have over the last four years. I would love to hear your perspective on connection and why you're so interested in people, or any of those things.
Heather Nelson: I have so many thoughts around that. I think at the end of the day, connection is about, it could be a one on one conversation, it could be you and I having a conversation, it could be a group interaction. But it also can be listening to a podcast, or joining a group on social media where there's some engagement. It doesn't always have to be a physical face to face thing that's happening, but it can be a connection virtually. One of the things that I've found very important for myself is a to-do list every day. It's like, make sure I drink my water. Make sure I wash my face at night. It's the basic things. But one of the things that's super important to me is making sure that I check in with a friend. And it's not a friend who I talk to every day, it's a friend who's been in my life. Or something came up, or a conversation about that person, I'm all about reaching out to them. And it could be a quick little text that's like, hey, thinking of you. Or even if you're driving and you think of someone, what is the harm? When you are not driving, you're pulled over and just send them a quick text, just letting people know that you're thinking of them.
And I think sometimes, that goes a long way, especially if you are in your own bubble. Or if you have a friend that's in a bubble that is not wanting to be social, and just checking in and just saying, hey, I'm here if you ever want to go grab a cup of coffee. And then sometimes, it's meeting them where they're at. I think I've learned over the years, especially with my job, to build relationships. So obviously, I take people to lunch, but then meet them where they eat. Some people didn't want to go to lunch, they wanted to go have a cup of coffee, or they wanted to go for a walk, or they wanted to go get a pedicure. And so sometimes, it's meeting people where they're at and where they feel comfortable to give them that experience. So I've always been a flexible person when it comes to that. I'm open if they want to go play pickleball. I'm like, sure, let's go play pickleball. Let's try something new. But again, I think it's so important to meet them where they're at. It could be, hey, let me stop by and we'll have a cup of coffee on the porch. Or dropping off a little gift to somebody just saying, hey, I'm thinking of you. I think those little things go a long way. I think people are in their bubble for certain reasons. And hopefully, they're not in bubbles for years and years, and years. But maybe it's just a season, maybe it's just a week, maybe it's a month. Or they're just not feeling great, whether that's physically, mentally. Whatever's kind of going on, and just knowing that people are in a season. Or even if you're in a season like, this is just a season for me. I will get back out and tackle the world. So that's my perspective of me leaning into other people, and making sure I show up and continue to connect with them.
Donna Piper: I love that. I love that you have a to-do list that has all the basic things.
Heather Nelson: I truly laugh, because it's like flossing your teeth. But they're the self care things that are important to me that I need to make sure I do every day.
Donna Piper: I love your list. I really do. I would love to hear all the things, because those little things are very important. And you want to make sure the little things add up. How do you decide the person that you want to reach out to?
Heather Nelson: It's kind of like what comes to mind. Every day, I randomly think of somebody. Or if we're on social media and you're scrolling, that's the other thing. I hate being on social media. It's one of those love-hate relationships. But I truly tell people the only reason I'm on Instagram is because I want to know what my clients are up to. In my last career where my position was, I followed all of my clients on social media, so I engaged with them. And so when I went to go meet with them and have lunch or whatever, I'm like, oh, my gosh, how was your trip to Hawaii? Because I knew what was going on in their lives based on social media. So again, a connection can be online. And I think you can comment and even like to DM people, or send someone a cute little meme that reminds you of them. That's all connection. I know I get so excited when someone sends me a cute meme, they were thinking of me today. So again, I think it's like there's so many small ways to connect with people in easy ways.
Donna Piper: Yeah. I love that, especially small and easy. I do like that you had a to-do list. Because part of the chronic illness thing is rest and doing half of what you do to really organize what's important. Because some days, it is just taking a shower, brushing your teeth, that's a success. But also, you have a ritual with that. So then you have that thought of like, okay, who can I reach out today? And it's not planned, but it's in your everyday kind of sphere and energy. So you're like, okay, this is what I'm going to do. And it helps both you as a connector and then the person on the receiving end. So those are some really good tips. We're all on social media. I'm the worst at Instagram. I really am. But I can scroll and send stuff. I'm not good at being a business person. But yes, using it hands down, perfect scroll, DM, all those things. I love those tips because I think it's really important. And I do know that you work with someone that does have some chronic illness, and I would really like to hear your talk about that. I want to hear the real stuff. Because having a chronic illness is a pain in the ass. Probably dealing with someone with a chronic illness can be a pain in the ass. It's a negative thing. It's just not usual what you're taught to be like a boss or interact with. There's things that come up that are probably like, huh, that might have been confusing. You're not gonna offend me. And hopefully, there's no PC way to talk about this. I just really want to hear your real experience about it with no judgment.
Heather Nelson: I think as you and I were chatting before we came on a record, I've never had experience with someone with chronic pain. It's always been physical, like they're sick or they have cancer, or there's something very physical about what they might be going through. I had a good friend. Her and I, we actually worked together for a few years. We've always really stayed connected. She was one of those that popped in and out of my life here and there. And I would say that it was probably the last four or five years, her and I got reconnected, and that's when she was telling me about all these chronic illnesses that she has. I can never say this one--
Donna Piper: Fibromyalgia.
Heather Nelson: I know that's one of them. And she has all kinds of things, and so she's not able to work at a full capacity like she has in the past. And she has good days and bad days. Again, this was a first experience for me. And I'm like, wow. And she tells me all of these things that happened to her. One day we show up and it's like 90 degrees, and she's in full sweat pants, full sweater, layers of clothes, boots on. I'm like, girl, it's so hot. But she's like, I'm freezing. And her nervous system doesn't adjust well to the weather. It was my first experience to be like, oh, this is a real thing. And this poor thing has no control over it. She does things to get her through each day. And then some days are good, and some are bad. So recently, she came to me and was like, I need to work. The non-working is really hard for me, because she used to be a hustler. She was like me. We were in events, we were in sales, and she worked so much. And then she got to this point where she physically couldn't work at all. Her mental health is great. I'm like, this girl is smarter than she has. She's on it. I'm like, anytime that there's a tech problem, I send it to her, and she figures it out.
Again, not a mental thing. It's a physical thing for her. And she's like, I just need to work. She's getting paid through the state, and I'm not quite sure how all of that works. So she's like, but I need something to do to keep my mind busy, and to make me feel good again, and make me feel like I'm worth, like I'm part of something. And so I have a business. My husband and I have a business. It's an event labor business. And so she's been helping me with a lot of behind the scenes, like creating invoices. She helps with scheduling our crew and putting it. She's helped me with all the tech and software side of things. And I truly do not know what I would do without her, and I tell her that every single day. But one of the things that, thankfully, the job that I've given her is not like, if she chooses not to work a day, it's fine. It's not going to set us back. She's super honest with me like, hey, Heather, today is not a great day. We check in every day, and she says, I have doctor's appointments today. I might not feel up to it later. Or she's like, I'm in a lot of pain, or I didn't get any sleep last night.
And for me, as a friend, but also as a business owner, I just want to be flexible. I want to be able to give her the flexibility, and know that there's no pressure either way if she's not feeling great or not. And giving her that grace of knowing, today is not a great day. Okay, then tomorrow's a new day. And she is so thankful for me being that way with her because it doesn't give her anxiety of not wanting to work, but it also gives her a purpose. She's like, I don't know what I would have done without you, because now I feel like I get excited. And I'm so excited about your growth as a person, and then as a business. And she's just so excited to be along for the ride. I'm truly, truly blessed to have her right now in my life. Again, she has been a friend, but now supports us in our business. That's my experience with her, learning along the way and adjusting to her needs. But I don't know what I do without her, and I know she'll probably listen to this podcast and cry.
Donna Piper: I know. It is very touching. Because I think some of the keys were that she was really open with you about what's going on with her even if you didn't understand it. I don't even know if I understand half of my stuff and my behaviors. And because of it, truly, let alone, it is enough to explain it to someone. But then also, when you heard about it, you were open to hearing and adjusting. It wasn't like, oh, well, how's this really going to work? It's nice to have a position where the day is not dependent on the date. Like you said, you do event staffing. So if you have an event and you're scheduled for that event, you need to show up for that event. So it's a position that is more project management, and you're flexible. But I think really the key is that she told you and she was honest, and you listened to that and adjusted each other's expectations of what the job requires, or what you need, and what she needs in a way that's workable for both of you. I could speak for myself, it took me a long time to tell people that I was sick, because who wants to be the sick girl all the time, right? Then people look at you and just like, well, you don't look sick. So maybe why? You know what I mean? Like, what are you playing over there? How do you explain to someone that you're sick, that you can't see it, right?
So even with her mental state, I'm going to speak for her, and she can DM me or tell me like, no girl, that's not how I feel at all. But having a purpose really is, when you're used to doing things and then you're unable to, there is this shift of like, I can rest all day. But this isn't fun.
My belief is that we're on this plane in a relationship way. We're here to connect with people. You can believe what you want, but we're here to learn how to connect with people, how to improve and go on through our relationships. So being sick and having people that actually hear you is huge. Thank you, because there's a lot of issues with this invisible illness. It is invisible, and then your doctors don't really believe you. That's kind of all separate thing, but you transfer that on to other things. Or if you feel bad like, oh, my god, I can't work today. How can I tell my boss that I'm in so much pain? Because for me, I know there's been days where I'm in a great deal of pain, and I could do it anyway. And then other days, I have huge amounts of pain and I can't do it. It's unexplainable for me as well, so I really appreciate that you not only looked at your situation and your friends, but you saw how valuable she is. It's not that we feel like I'm again talking for her, but she could correct me. Like, I don't want to be an unreliable person. If you're hiring me, I don't want to always feel pressure that I'm letting you down as well. Your relationship is a very beautiful thing. Like the strange things that come up like wearing a lot of clothes when it's really hot. What is your interpretation of chronic illness? I'm just curious. What does that look like to you? When you see that, are you like, oh, I don't get it.
Heather Nelson: I get it now. I don't think I got it before. But seeing somebody go through it, I see it now. Again, it's not a physical thing that you see. It's something that internally they're going through. Like you were saying, somebody could be like, you're probably just making this up not to work, or whatever it might be. I truly believe now. Being in it, I'm like, this is totally not it. I've come to her and said, hey, have this project if you're feeling up to it, can you talk about today or whatnot. The way I worded it almost offended her because she's like, it's not that I don't want to work. I physically can't work, or I'm exhausted, or my joints hurt. There's certain things where she's like, I was up all night because I couldn't sleep. And I'm like, okay. Nothing is life or death. We can postpone it. It's nothing that I don't know how to do that I can't do on my own, and so I think we just have to be flexible with that.
And I think as business owners, as we have more employees, that's something that I've learned over the years being an employer or being an employee. This is one of the models that I want to set for our business. And I say that because my husband feels the same way. Everything that I went through as an employee, I don't want to be that. Like, all the yucky stuff? That's not how I want to show up as a boss. I want to be accommodating. I want to adjust as needed. If somebody's not feeling great, okay. If you're sick for a week because you have chronic pain, there's no judgment behind that. Because I just remember over the years having different jobs, and there's judgment. I used to get migraines so I kind of know. Like, you can't see it, but I'm literally in so much pain. And I just remember always calling in sick and just feeling so awful about it because they made me feel like I'm lying, or I don't want to come to work, or I just hated that yuck feeling about that. So as an employee or an employer, I'm really trying to show up and be a little bit more accommodating, and a little bit more flexible with things, and really appreciating people. I think something that is missed with employers is like, just showing appreciation, telling people that you're doing a great job, I see you, I'm thankful for you, I think those things go such a long way. And I think a lot of employers don't do that. And I know I totally went off topic on that.
Donna Piper: You didn't. It's right in there, and that you are placing your business model on that because you had migraines, you had things you understand. I think also your podcast, everything, there's always a twist. So that twist today could be not feeling well, and that you're providing a space where people will want to, like in my experience, people want to show up more if they have this experience. If you're willing, other than the reverse of always, oh, you're lying. I need more out of you, other than squeezing out of it. You create a situation where they actually want to come to work and then they're bummed. Because if they can't because of sickness or whatever, then they appreciate you more, and then they want to do more for you, which is a more beautiful way to be in a relationship. I think that's amazing, that you're creating this business model, that is really about your values and what you want. That you're like, I don't want to be the icky boss.
Heather Nelson: I don't want them talking about me behind my back because I know I've done it. I don't want to be that employer. I tell my husband all the time, when it comes to our employees, he's the one that's a little more tough love. Or I'm like, oh, let's just give them gas money today. Or let's buy them lunch. Because again, those appreciations go so far. Sometimes, our team will just show up at our house and he wants to talk to him forever. I'm like, that's a good thing that they want to be in our presence, and that they want to stay for an hour and talk with you. You need to just embrace and love that, because again, you're building trust. And the more trust you build, the more that they're going to want to do for you. So I think it's all coming full circle.
Donna Piper: And that's beautiful, and that you're open for that. I just feel like a nice form and fuzzy. You're creating a business up there that is something that is not the antithesis of what you had, but something embraces all of the positive things and all the things you want to perpetuate, which then also in turn helps people. I think as we model and treat people, maybe if they run and go in 5, 10 years they create their own business, maybe they'll adopt your own model. It's more expensive like that. And it probably really comes out at your events too. Because when the employees are happy and they're doing stuff, and then they feel like their boss cares about them, there is that. I'm sure you've heard of the anger spiral. If you're angry and you yell, it quickly runs through this, and then all these people are affected. This is the same sort of spiral, but in a more positive way, which is also the same sort of thing. And we need more of that, so thank you.
Heather Nelson: If I go on another walk and somebody does not say hi to me when I say hi to them, I just want to throw a rock at them. I'm like, why can't you just say hi or smile? I'm not asking to have a conversation, but just be friendly. Nobody can do that anymore.
Donna Piper: I know it's really weird that we've come to that interaction and just a narrow hi. How are you? I get that all the time too. People either have a stone face. I'm like, do they not hear well?
Heather Nelson: They totally see you. I think that's why my consulting business is called The Connection Hive because the word connection is so powerful to me in so many ways. It's like your everyday interactions. It's how you show up in life. It's how you connect with people, how you show empathy, how you build trust to build your business. All of that is so important to me. So when I was trying to figure out what the name of my company is, I was like, it has to have the word connection in it because that is my power word.
Donna Piper: Oh, I love that. And on the days where you don't feel like connecting. You're human, and if you have to show up for your clients or do whatever, what is your little process that you do that gets you in there? I know we talked before. just showing up and talking to them, you feel better. But is there anything that you center yourself with before you make connections that are kind of woven into your fabric of who you are? I know you have your list. Is there a get into the connection modes?
Heather Nelson: Some days, like I said, I don't want to do those things. I don't want to be interactive. But it's always those moments, those events, those meetings, those podcast interviews, when I had that little bit of a doubt were the most impactful. I can't even tell you how many networking events I've gone to, and I'm like, oh, my god. It's been a long day. I've been in meetings all day. I don't want to drive an hour to go to this event. I'm stuck in traffic. I always make the best connections, whether that's personal or a professional. So I always just have to remind myself, yes, you don't want to do it. Just get ready, get in the car, take a deep breath, and just go in there and show up the best that you can. And it's never ever failed me. But there are days where I'm just not feeling it. I will cancel things. I'm just like, you know what? Today, I need a lazy day from the minute I wake up until probably around after dinner. And then after dinner, I'm like, I'm on the couch. I just want to scroll on Instagram for like 20 minutes. I just want to chill. And I definitely do that. And I think my kids go, mom, let's go out. Let's go do something. This is boring. And I'm like, I just need a minute to unwind. And so I think giving yourself grace when it's really not a moment that you can really show up, that it's okay to take a break. I've still constantly learned that I know I could be doing something. I could spend the next three hours working on my business or researching other podcast guests, or whatever it is. I'm like, just chill Heather. It's okay to not do something. You manifest generator, just chill. And so I've been trying to do more of that. And one of my focuses this year is just being more present with my family, because I was constantly in my head of different business ideas. What do I need to do? I was always thinking of the next things. And so I've been really trying to shut off work, just be present and not be on my phone, and really just be there. And so that's been something that I've been trying to focus on this year.
Donna Piper: Because you really do have to kind of stop yourself and say, hey, I need to do this, or be present, or breathe. And I like that. You bring in the breath, and then also the manifesting generator.
Heather Nelson: The other day, she's like, you're a manifesting generator, aren't you? And I was like, how did you know? Because my bio is 20 pages long.
Donna Piper: I love that too. So I'd love to dive in a little personal now, I know you do. So through this whole interview, I'm sure everyone out there listening can feel how warm you are, and how flexible you are, and how giving you are. And then awe of the one other thing that you give with you, not just your time, but your body and your energy. Can you talk a little bit about your surrogacy? How did you get into it? What it means to you, and kind of your WHY?
Heather Nelson: So this idea circulated about when my son was 2, and he is 11 now. So this was nine years ago. I had this idea. I worked with a co-worker, and she was a surrogate. And I was so intrigued. I was like, I need to know everything. I just remember her coming into my office, and I just had 5000 questions for her. I was like, I want to do this. And so, of course, I went home, researched and did all the things. And at the time, I was married to my ex husband, and I already had two kids. My daughter was 5, and my son was 2. I went to my ex husband, I was like, hey, I want to be a surrogate. And he was like, absolutely not. Nope, and no desire. He didn't want to learn about it. He was not interested. And I was like, okay, fine. So I put it aside. Fast Forward, I met my new husband, and he had a daughter. I had my two, so we already had three kids, and there were obviously conversations about us having one together. But I said, I really want to be a surrogate. And he was like, you want what? He didn't even know what it was. He's Latino. He's Catholic. He's like, I don't know any of this is. So I made him watch the videos. I educated him as much as I could, and he's like, if this is something that you truly want to do, then let's do it.
So we began that process, and I carried for a woman. She lives in Florida. She's a single mom now, but she didn't have eggs. She wasn't producing eggs. She couldn't carry a baby. And then obviously, she was single, so she had to do all the things. And so when I met her, I just knew that I knew the love that I found with my two children, and I wanted to be able to give that to her, or any family who really feels truly about having children, and they physically can't. And so I went through the process with her. That baby is now 5. She was born in 2020, and I knew deep down inside that I wanted to do it one more time. I just turned 43. So if I was in my 20s, I probably would have more to be honest. I wish I had this idea and this excitement about it when I was younger, but I did have kids till I was almost 30. So my husband said, you can do it again. But I want a child with you. So we had my son. He's now 4. And so soon after I was done having babies with him, I was like, let's be a surrogate again. It's like, okay. So I have been matched with two men out of San Francisco. I live in Sonoma County, California. They are about an hour south of me. They were mutual friends.
The first journey, I went through an agency. So as you know, of course, your first journey, because you're learning contracts and the medicals, and there's appointments that need to be made. And so they really help guide you through that process. But the second journey, I knew enough about it because I'd already been through it. We didn't go through an agency. We've just been working directly. We obviously have lawyers, and we have our medical team that helps us out. And so back in May, I did my first transfer. Unfortunately, we didn't take it, we went back in August, at the end of August, that didn't take as well. So we're working on our next date, which will probably be like November, December. And we'll start that process again. So I keep saying 3rd time's a charm, and everybody asked me how I mentally am feeling about it. And honestly, at the end of the day, I truly believe things happen for a reason. And there's a reason those babies didn't take. Whether there's a development issue or whatnot. My mindset through this is that it's going to be what it's meant to be. And so I'm hoping this third time, it happens.
Donna Piper: I hope so too. I hope that next time we connect, you're pregnant.
Heather Nelson: I think one of the things after doing it the first time and after giving birth, and having the mom sitting right next to me, and my husband on the other side of me, and giving birth to this baby, and seeing this baby go into the arms of this mom who was so over the moon and so excited to have this baby in her hand, that's when I knew that what surrogacy is all about is truly that, and how special it is. And so that's why I was like, I wish I could do it many, many more times. But I really have become a big advocate for it. I want to educate people more about this journey. I've been talking on social media about it more. I will definitely be talking through the journey and going through the ups and downs, just because I really want people to know that it's such a beautiful thing. It's not a scary thing. It's not a weird thing, it's something that so many families need right now, especially with all the fertility things that are coming up with women these days. I just want to encourage more women to do it.
Donna Piper: So when you first went through it, through an agency, did they give you any test that you have to do? Have any mental or emotional--
Heather Nelson: You fill out like a 90 page survey of everything about you, pretty much. Like, how are your births? Who are you? What do you believe? What kind of relationship do you want with the baby? It's very intensive. You go through a background check, you go through a psychological test. You go through MediCal, obviously, to make sure that you're physically okay to have a baby. All the medical records from all your births get turned over to the doctors for them to review. And then you go through contracting, go through legal. So you do go through all of that before you get pregnant.
Donna Piper: That's quite an education, I'm sure, on so many different levels. When you chose to do this, and you went through all the tests, did they give you any counseling or guidance on not giving up the baby? But once you have the baby, you hand it over to the mother. She was there. I don't know anything about it, just stories here and there randomly that there was like, oh, I don't really want to give up the baby. Do you have that? Or that's not really a thing?
Heather Nelson: I think it could be a thing for sure. But I think when you go through this process, it is very contract heavy. It's very transactional. You do have access to counseling through the whole process. So with our agency, we have an independent one now that I would always have access to if I felt that I needed it. Some people write in their contracts to continue to do counseling throughout the pregnancy, so there's definitely those services. I didn't need it because I always knew that going into this, this is not my baby. Even up into the transfer where they're like, we are transferring the baby of X, Y, Z into, you know what I mean? It feels very like, this is not your baby. And of course, when you're caring, you feel this child in you, it's just like, I was pregnant with any of my other children, but I knew that when she came out, that she's not mine. And of course, do I still love her? Yes. Do I want to meet her someday? Absolutely. Do I still stay in contact and hear all the updates? 100%. But I still don't feel that she was ever mine, because she wasn't. She wasn't my DNA. I was literally just the oven cooking,
Donna Piper: Because how everything kind of transpired, it was like, this is something that you're part of the process. Do they put in your contract that you want to meet the baby? I'm sure it depends on the parent.
Heather Nelson: All of that has to be determined. So all of that actually gets determined before they even match you. So when you fill out that 90 page thing, they take both and they match you with the right parents that are wanting the same thing. They want the same experience. They want the same journey. They want the same relationship. After all of that gets pretty much locked down before you even say yes, and before you even get to contract. But then, yes, all that comes into contract. The contract is very, very lengthy. It's like an hour-long call just to go through each section. But you're very much protected when it comes to things like that. What people don't realize is you have to talk about, what if they run tests and the baby has down syndrome, and the parents decide to abort it? Those are conversations you have to go into setting those expectations of, like, what will happen. And luckily, on my first journey, I didn't have anything that came up. The only thing that came up for us was I lived in an area where we had massive wildfires when I was pregnant, and so she was really worried about my health because of all the smoke and stuff, even though we were all on lockdown and couldn't leave our houses. Pretty much, she asked for me to leave the area. I did go and leave the area for about a week, but that was a really hard decision because I had a job at the time. I have a husband, I have two children, and I'm also in an evacuation zone. So if I leave and we get evacuated now, my husband's stuck doing everything. So that was a really hard thing, and that was probably the hardest thing that came up. But luckily, any other weird things, we would always talk through it. We had a social worker that helps with navigating some of those harder conversations.
Donna Piper: Are you in constant contact with the parents-to-be while you're pregnant? Or not really? I'm sure you choose it. But in your case, were you more in contact with her?
Heather Nelson: Yes. She and I would probably talk once a week, and she always wanted me to send her pictures of my belly, and videos of the baby kicking. And she videoed all the appointments, so we were definitely in communication. I don't talk to her as much. I say probably once a month we'll check in, and she sends me photos and chats about my family. When I picked this new family, she actually talked to them like they wanted to chat with her just to see how her experience was with me. And of course, they're like, she absolutely adores everything about you. It's like, yeah. And so the current parents now, I say we talk maybe once a week. They'll check in. Because nothing's really happening right now, I don't talk to them as much. But when the transfer happened, obviously the first transfer, they came with me. I got to spend time with them, and we went to dinner. We hung out by the pool together, and so I really got to know them on a more personal level. And they did make it to the second one, but we definitely are close enough that we probably will see each other a little bit more, and we communicate randomly on different things.
Donna Piper: So with this contract, do they want you to be a part of their child's life? Because you live close, at a younger age, or some that you'll be a part of this family.
Heather Nelson: I barely see them now. And so even when the babies are here, I would see them more. But for me, I'm like, I raised this little baby inside me. I gave birth to this baby. I want to see what they look like, how they grow, and what they like. So there's still that mom instinct of wanting to know those things. But I don't feel sad that I don't see her. I don't feel that connection at all.
Donna Piper: Wow, that's beautiful. And the crossover with both of these things is that people that didn't experience invisible illness, it's like, I don't really understand it. And surrogacy, I think would have the same sort of like, random people that probably are in your life have probably a strong opinion, or have maybe told you or judgment or whatever. So how do you personally navigate, not just your own beautiful journey, because it's something that means a lot to you, but interactions you said you had. Your husband's changed so that he wasn't down with it for the first thing. So this new husband is more supportive of everything. But what has been some of maybe almost surprising feedback that you're getting from people, solicited or unsolicited by friends and family?
Heather Nelson: I think the number one thing that made me fear going into surrogacy for the first time was what people were going to think. I truly was worried. And because of where my job was and what my role was, I was obviously interacting with people all the time, and I was so worried about what people were going to think. Were they going to judge me? They always had 5000 questions, and I was okay with it. Because, again, I'm just educating people. I want people to understand that this is an okay thing. It's not anything to be weird, it's not taboo, it's a real life thing. And so I was actually very surprised at this, the last journey, how supportive everybody was through my family. I remember telling my grandma, don't tell grandma and grandpa anything. My life has always been ups and downs between my divorces and surrogacy and so many different things. Every time I tell them something, they're like, why am I not surprised? But they've always been there. They're actually one of the more supportive ones, and they always ask for photos. They wanted to know the things, so I was actually very surprised. If people are not comfortable with it, they just don't say anything. And that's fine. I really never push it upon people. If people want to have the conversation about it, I will have it. If they don't, I leave it alone. And that goes with my kids.
Now, I have a 19 year old who, at the time for my last one, didn't want anything to do with it. She didn't ask me about it, never interacted with me about it. But now, she's super interested about it, and thinks it's cool because she's older now. Now, my 14 year old is not into it because she is 14. But before, she was younger and didn't really care. Didn't really know things, but wants nothing to do with it this time. And so it's interesting how my kids have changed their opinions based on their ages. And obviously, when they were smaller, having to go to pickups or go to school functions, everybody would ask like, oh, was this your baby brother or sister? And they did such a great job at saying, no, mommy's caring for somebody else. And so they get it. I think it's a little bit harder for them, especially now that they're older, how they navigate that a little bit. But again, I don't push it on them. If they want to talk to me about anything, I'll talk to them about it. But I will never go to them and say, oh, my gosh, I leave it to everybody's comfort zone, really, at the end of the day. And it is hard. Some days, you are going to a store and everyone's like, oh, you're having a baby. And I'm like, oh, I'm actually caring for somebody else. And they're like, what? Everyone's so shocked by it. And then again, they ask a lot of questions. But I'm an open book. I want people to know about it. I'm not going to lie, not going to sugarcoat anything. Again, I want people to embrace what it is. And so I just read an open book about it.
Donna Piper: That's beautiful. And since you want to share it so much, these opportunities at the grocery store or wherever, if you say that and maybe they might find some curiosity about it, do you have anything formal or official where you try to mentor or help people, or educate about surrogacy?
Heather Nelson: Not yet, but I do. I think what I might do with my podcast is take a little season, and maybe that's a couple months. And my guest will be all around surrogacy, whether that's a doctor or fertility doctor. I was actually interviewed on my fertility doctor's podcast as a surrogate, so that was really cool. But I want to have people on the podcast who either are surrogates or have like, I would love to have my own husband on and talk about his experience. And so I want to do more education around that. And I probably will do that. I keep planning it, and then I'm not pregnant, but I wanted to do that when I'm pregnant and in this beautiful journey together. So more to come on that.
Donna Piper: You have a focus right now, that you mission is to get pregnant again. So that's where all your energy is going and then more. If you would like, I can link those podcasts about surrogacy to the show notes so people that are interested, or maybe if you're chronic illness or something that you want to have a family but you're unable to, this could be a really nice route for anyone out there. I'm sure Heather would answer all your questions. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna take it upon myself to DM her on Instagram. Where can they find you on Instagram? Where do you hang out? Do you have your podcast? What's the best channel?
Heather Nelson: The best channel is probably the heathernelson.life.. That is my personal Instagram/business/brand. I continue to push content there. I'm definitely more active there. You can see my podcast. I also host women's retreats. You can see my kids and all the craziness that happens all there. I also have a website called connectionhive.com, and that is my consulting business. And you can find my podcasts and stuff on there as well. And my podcast, you can find on any platform which is called Life Conversations With A Twist, and definitely would love for anybody to follow along. I always tell people, you want to go back because I've had so many amazing guests even on the beginning stages of my podcast. There's some great ones. I think I've had probably about five solo up episodes just around surrogacy and different topics around that. So if anyone is interested, there's specific episodes just on that.
Donna Piper: Oh, that's beautiful. That's a really interesting conversation to have. The process, how long did it take you the first time to fill up the paperwork?
Heather Nelson: I didn't even mention that before I got matched with the girl, the one that I had the baby for, I was actually matched with another two gay guys. They lived in Sweden, and so I actually went through that process with them, which was about a year. Even went to the transfer. The transfer didn't take, and they decided to cancel their journey. So that in itself was probably about a year and a half with my last one. It was probably about a year to two between matching medical things. Thankfully, our first transfer was the only transfer. So that was like a quick thing. This one has been taking a very much longer time, I think. When we started the transfer back in May, we had already been through the process for a year. So we're going on a year and a half, and I probably won't get pregnant, hopefully, until the beginning of the year. Which means I'll be with them a whole nother year. So it is a process, and you just have to be patient. Some things take a little longer than others, and some happen really quickly. You just have to be very, very patient.
Donna Piper: That's good to know. If you want to be a surrogate, or if you're looking to be matched, it's about a year before the thing starts to happen. So it's like a couple years together.
Heather Nelson: And matching isn't an easy process. There's not enough surrogates. I hear that all the time. I listen to other podcasts. I've talked to different fertility doctors. There's not enough people who are stepping up to the plate to be surrogate. So these poor families who are just trying to find one have a really hard time. The other thing that people forget is that surrogacy is not allowed in every single state. In the United States. In fact, it's not even allowed in a lot of countries. So people from other countries are coming to the US to find their surrogates. So you see a lot of international stuff. And then now, with all the stuff with our government, I'm sure it's even harder now. So there's even that process that people don't understand. So then you're like, the surrogacy pool is so small.
Donna Piper: Oh, wow. You do get matched, and you find someone, and it is successful, and you continue that journey. So, wow, yeah. Also, if you're anyone out there listening that is interested in, there's a lot of families that are in need, but not a lot of surrogates. So if you know of anyone that you think might be interested or just curious, I highly encourage you to contact Heather, or listen to any of these podcasts, because it sounds like it's going to be the next--
Heather Nelson: Or reach out to a fertility surrogacy agency. There's so many now, and I'm happy if anyone reaches out. I can send you the group that I worked with. They were out of LA, and I absolutely loved them. And they loved my experience with them, that sometimes you can just get on a call and just ask the questions, and they're so great. Okay, that stuff there too, but I'm an open book too so anybody can. I've had very great successful stories. That has not always been the case. There are some really horrible, serious stories out there. I listen to more podcasts and I hear about them. I'm like, oh, my gosh. I'm so lucky. So it's not always rain, rainbows and sunshine. There's definitely some things that can happen. But I really, truly believe that going through an agency is the best way to go, especially for your first one.
Donna Piper: Yeah, it sounds like it's very complicated. Yes, there's a lot of variables, and there's a lot of things that you really have to plan out. If there are birth defects, if there are things like, what are both parties wanting to do? And even more so than you probably didn't plan out that as your own children, right? I mean, maybe along the way. But not like, okay, here is the whole plan, and these are all these contingencies. So it's nice that everyone is set up for their expectations, and then from the beginning. And obviously, things change. But then if those parties feel a little safer going into it like, okay, this is our plan. We don't have to do it mid emotions, mid whatever comes up, because I'm sure it's a very emotional journey for each of you because there's also hormones involved.
Heather Nelson: Yes, family business, your work, your whole life, your hormones, all of daily life stuff that pull in. I forget it's a full time job. There's definitely certain parts of it that feel like a full time job. So when I tell people about what I do, they're like, how do you do it all? I'm like, I don't know.
Donna Piper: It sounds like you're very passionate about all the projects that you have. And I think that also probably gives you some energy to sustain the whole thing. Because it sounds like there's a sustaining energy that needs to happen through all of the things that could or could not happen, especially now in the process of getting the transfer. You seem like you're very solid and happy, and mentally clear with all that. I've had friends that are getting IVF, I guess, technically. They've had days where they were supposed to get their implant that day, and they were in the parking lot, and they got called by the doctor and said their eggs were no longer viable. So it's definitely a roller coaster with things. You have the human body that needs to do its thing, which can't force it to do anything.
Heather Nelson: That's the part that's being patient. You just have to be patient. You get the transfer done, and then you just have to patiently wait till you're pregnant, or patiently wait until you get that blood work. And then you go get the blood work, and then you have to wait like 24 hours to get the results. And it's like on pins and needles yoyo of emotion. So I think that's the hardest part. For me, that's been the unknown. And then finding out something not great. I'm glad that we're just in the chill zone right now, and then ramp up again in a month for that process again.
Donna Piper: Well, I hope it turns out how it's supposed to turn out, getting pregnant and doing all the things for this family that seems like you are really wanting your heart to just have them have a family, and they're really wanting this, which is a beautiful thing. I love our conversation. I thought it was so fun, and we covered a lot of different things. But in the end, it's all about connection. A good reminder to me from you, Heather, is it connects and connects with an open ended presence of like, let's see where it goes. Let's be flexible because you never know on both ends, and that actually makes your connection with people, yourself and the world around you an easier flow. You're more in flow, other than trying to force things. And patience, you have beautiful patience of just like, okay, this is what I want, and I need to sustain some energy around patience. And always beautifully just reaching out to someone that you feel drawn to, a little meme, a little hello, a smiley face, something kind of helps bridge your own emotions to help people, and then we'll help the other person. Because connecting us to them, it's like this two way street, and it was a very beautiful conversation, especially how your perception of working with someone that has an invisible illness, a chronic illness.
And again, that listening, figuring out something together, and also through this is like the more vulnerable and the honest you are. You don't want to hide that you're a surrogate. You don't want to hide your feelings about how things are, about your working relationship. The more you talk about things and put it all out there, even if it's scary or you feel weird about it, or you don't want to be judged, then it opens up more true conversation. So you can have relationships that are more rooted in trust, and you're not thinking that the other person needs to do this. Or there's no weird expectations, or there's no expectations behind the scene, which actually makes these environments that you're creating really amazingly beautiful. So I really appreciate your time and all of your wisdom. Thank you.Do you have any final thoughts? Or is there anything that you wish that you would have known sooner along your journey? Or if someone would have told you years ago that would have helped you in any aspect, it could be like a girl of wisdom. think
Heather Nelson: I think for me, one of the things we didn't like to go deep into is just really pushing your life to be the life that you want and not accepting. Oh, it's just the way it is. Or, oh, this is what life has thrown at me. That you really get to write your path and write your journey, and that you need to lean into that. And every choice that you make should be toward loving the life that you have. And so I didn't do that for a lot of my journey until probably 10 years ago. And then that is when it was like, oh, yeah, I am in control of my life and how it plays out. And so just reminding yourself that you're in control of that.
Donna Piper: Oh, I love that. That's the perfect thing to end it. I'll leave all of Heather's links below in the show notes, reach out and also link the podcast where she talks about her experience for fertility or the surrogacy with her fertility doctor. And I just really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me today. And everyone out there listening, if you have any comments, let us know. See you next week.
________________
OUTRO: If this episode made you feel even a little more seen, brought you a dose of clarity or pointed you toward your next step, please rate, review and share it with someone who's been quietly carrying the same questions. You can find some more resources, blog posts and healing tools over at donnapiper.com. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Until next time, Dear Body, I'm listening, and I am so glad you're here.
